The Hidden Divorce: Why You Feel Stuck—and How Financial Clarity Sets You Free

0:01

Welcome to WeChat Divorce, hosted by Karen Chellew, Legal Liaison and Catherine Shanahan, CDFA. Each episode we sit down with divorce professionals and industry experts to provide insights and frank discussions about real people, real situations, and real divorce to help you achieve your best life post divorce.

0:24

This episode of We Chat Divorce is brought to you by My Divorce Solution, offering divorce financial planning so clients can secure the divorce settlement they deserve.

Visit azure-emu-499854.hostingersite.com/ to request.

Access.

There’s a quiet kind of divorce that doesn’t start with papers being filed.

0:44

It starts years earlier when the marriage stops feeling alive, but no one knows what to do next.

Most people do not know what to do next.

Today, we’re talking about that in between space where fear and decision and obligation keep people stuck.

1:02

Welcome back to WeChat Divorce, brought to you by My Divorce Solution.

I’m Karen Chellew, Legal Liaison, helping you navigate the legal complexities of divorce with clarity and confidence.

I’m Catherine Shanahan, Certified Divorce Financial Analyst and your partner in long term financial security.

1:20

At MD’s, we believe preparation isn’t just about documents and numbers.

It’s about strategy, mindset, and understanding the full financial impact of all of your decisions.

What most people don’t realize is that staying in a marriage by default without clarity can be just as costly as divorcing without a plan.

1:42

Yeah, You know, this conversation was really good.

You know, first of all, she’s so passionate and it was fun to have her back on, right?

But it’s a big phenomenon out there of people our age and older who just feel so stuck in their marriages.

1:58

And I like how she talks about it and how you can look into your future in a different way by making these decisions, whether you choose to stay or go.

Yeah.

And it’s not always a decision about whether I divorce or not.

2:14

Sometimes it’s a decision about other things that lead to that decision.

So I think she did a good job with that too.

And if you’ve been in, if you’ve been living in a marriage that’s been emotionally over for a long time, you will want to listen closely to what comes next.

2:30

So let’s welcome our guest, Karen Kobe.

Hi and welcome to WeChat Divorce.

Hey, it’s, I’m really glad to be here.

Thank you so much for having me.

We’re so glad to have you back.

You’re one of our favorite guests that we have here.

And for our listeners, if you didn’t hear our conversation with Karen, I think it’s been 1 of at least a year or so ago.

2:53

Let me tell you about her.

An update.

So Karen Covey is a divorce coach, lawyer, mediator, author, speaker, and podcaster.

She coaches busy professionals and business owners all over the world to make clear, confident decisions about their most important relationships.

3:11

She also helps them navigate through divorce with less conflict, unnecessary expense, and needless drama so that they can create the life they truly desire sooner than later.

Karen is the author of When Happily Ever After Ends, How to Survive Your Divorce emotionally, Financially, and legally.

3:31

She’s also the creator of the online divorce programs The Divorce Road Map, 3 Point O, and How to Successfully Mediate Your Divorce, as well as the host of the podcast Off the Fence, Mastering Decision Making, Divorce, and More.

And I am Out of Breath.

3:51

Excellent.

Karen.

You know, kudos to you for all that you’ve done in this space to help people divorce a better way.

And so today we speak.

We want to talk about helping people who feel stuck, particularly in long term marriages that have quietly fallen apart.

4:11

So let’s start there, Karen.

How do you define what you call a hidden divorce?

Hidden divorce is what unfortunately so many people are suffering from, which is a they’re legally married, probably still living in the same house but living like strangers, living like 2 ships passing in the night.

4:34

They have.

The intimacy has long since disappeared from their marriage.

If they talk at all, it’s about logistics.

You know, where are you going today?

Or you know, what about if the kids are still at home?

You know what?

4:50

What’s the kids schedules?

What are they doing?

But their interactions are shallow.

They’re superficial.

They’re they’re not very, they don’t talk very much and they certainly don’t talk about anything they care about.

They have disconnected emotionally from the marriage a long, long time ago, but they’re still legally married on the outside.

5:12

And so do you feel that they find themselves in that place because they’re reticent to upset the apple cart of sorts?

Or they’re they did.

Maybe they don’t know what lies ahead or they just don’t have energy to deal with it.

5:28

But what do you think would be a reason that keeps them in that stuck place?

All of the above and more, right?

So people will stay stuck for a variety of reasons.

For some people, it’s inertia.

5:45

It’s just this has always been, you know, or it’s been this way for so many years.

They can’t imagine a life beyond what they have or #2 they just, they stopped communicating a little bit by little bit over the years to the point where they’re now strangers and they don’t even know where to start.

6:05

Or they have so little in common they don’t know what to talk about anymore.

It can also happen because they’ve drifted apart and one spouse might have had an affair and they never dealt with that.

They never dealt with the emotional pain, with whatever’s going on.

6:23

So there are a lot of things that can keep people stuck.

Also, the fact of the unknown, OK, if we get divorced, especially if we’re later in life, let’s say 50 plus.

Although from where I sit, 50 is not later in life, but that’s just so, you know, when they’re thinking about what do I do moving forward?

6:46

If I did divorce, would I have enough money?

What is that going to do to the to my lifestyle?

What is that going to do to our family?

Because even if the kids are older, it still effects them.

It affects their holidays, it affects their relationship with each parent.

7:02

So there’s so much uncertainty and so much of the unknown involved in making this change, making this transition, that a lot of people are like, I don’t know, should I shouldn’t die?

I don’t know.

I don’t know.

And that keeps them stuck in the hamster wheel.

7:20

And some people like being stuck.

Yeah.

I mean, you wouldn’t admit it because, like, if you were having a conversation with someone, they’d say no, of course I don’t want to be stuck.

But the idea of actually doing something to move them forward is so terrifying that it’s the double, you know, versus the double you don’t, right.

7:43

You know, your situation right now, you it may be uncomfortable, you might not like it.

It may not be the life you ever wanted, but you know it.

And if you go into something different, you have no idea what that’s going to look like.

And for a lot of people, that’s terrifying.

8:02

You know that’s happening, yeah.

Especially when you don’t have a relationship with money, you know, if you’ve never handled the finances, now you’re a little lost because you’re kids, you’re an empty nester and where’s your place now, right?

So it’s scary to have to learn to deal with your own finances.

8:17

Good, better and different, you know?

So taking that step to get that financial courage could be really rewarding for you.

You know, we have a lot of people come through the process and they’re thinking divorce, They’re stuck.

And then when they get some financial clarity, they either decide, listen, I’m not, I’ll stay with them.

8:34

You know, I’ll stay, it’s too hard or, Oh my gosh, I’m out of here.

Why did I stay here so long?

I can do this on my own.

Right.

And that’s a, a wonderful point.

What you, you know, what people need is financial clarity first, because if you don’t know what, what you have or don’t have, your mind starts to, to make up all kinds of stories about you’re going to die.

8:55

You’re going to be, you know, you’re going to be homeless, you’re going to be eating cat food all the rest of your life, all the things because you don’t know the truth of your numbers.

And once you do, to your point, Catherine, once you do know your numbers, maybe you look and you say, you know what, financially I can’t do this or I can’t do this right now with, but I know this is what I have and this is where I’d have to be to make this decision.

9:21

So now you have the basis of a plan right now.

You can take, you know, stock of your finances and say, OK, I need to get a job or go back to work or get a better job or whatever your situation is and make some amount of money and save it.

And then I’ll be OK.

9:37

And then we can I can move forward with the rest of my life.

But you can’t do that if you don’t even know what you have.

Yeah, and you can’t believe your money’s spouse who always says you’ll have nothing if we get divorced.

I can remember my spouse saying that to me.

You’ll have nothing.

9:53

What do you think your life will be like without me?

And I even handled the finances.

So I didn’t, you know, that didn’t scare me.

But we have a lot of people that come through our process.

They say, well, my spouse said this and my spouse said, that’s not marital.

And my spouse said this and that.

10:09

We try to change that dialogue for them.

Yeah, it starts with not listening to your spouse, but getting the hard data.

And that’s what you 2 Excel at is helping people put together.

OK, here’s the list of the documents that you need to collect.

10:24

Here’s the information.

Now let’s take that data and input it so that we can have it in a usable form.

And you can just see because the numbers don’t lie.

This is what you have.

This is what you, you know what you owe on what you have.

Here’s the money coming in, the money going out each month here.

10:42

Now we can start talking about possibilities.

But until you’re, you’ve at least got that foundation of data, you can’t even get there.

So I always tell my clients facts, conquer fear, Get the facts.

Don’t, don’t listen to what your spouse is saying.

11:00

Get the data and then you can start making decisions from there.

For sure and what we need to add 2 more on to that your spouse, Google and AI chat chat.

Look, I love chat as much as anybody else, but you know a lot of people make decisions on on really big life transitions based on something they may have googled.

11:29

I spoke with someone earlier this week and she, she said, well, I generally know my finances, but I believe that the court is going to give my spouse 75% of my pension because he’s not well.

And I said, wow, did did an attorney help you understand this?

11:47

And she said, no, I googled it.

But she was basing her whole decision on whether to get divorced or not because of that Google response that she, I don’t even know how that would have even come up, but whatever she Googled created that response.

12:03

And I think that happens so much.

People do listen to their spouse.

They do listen to a lot of noise that’s not accurate relative to really how it works.

And you can know your network statement all day long, but taking that and placing that into a division scenario is critical.

12:27

Absolutely.

And you know, not only now, it used to be that you would have your spouse in your ear and the what I call the Greek chorus, the friends and family who want to tell you about my divorce, let me tell you about my divorce, right?

And they think yours is going to be exactly the same.

12:43

Well, guess what?

There are no two divorces that are exactly the same, just like there are two, there are no two marriages that are exactly the same, right?

So listening to those that advice is bad.

And now you’ve got the digital advice on top of it.

And I look, I use AIA lot.

13:00

I love AI, I’ll put that out there.

But I hold AI to task sometimes it gives me, I’ll ask a question, it gives me answers and I, I’ll be like, wow, that’s fascinating.

I didn’t know that.

Hey, AI, can you cite me your source where you pulled that data from?

13:18

And they’re like, it’s, it’ll say, Oh yeah, I made that up.

Or I, I kind of, I extrapolated that from other data.

That, which in other words means you’re hallucinating.

You made it up, right?

So you to, to base a life decision for a major life decision on what Google or AI says.

13:40

Bad idea.

Yeah, that that bad idea for sure.

Yeah.

And I think, you know a lot of people, we want that.

And we all, I mean, that is our culture.

We want that instant response.

We want that instant answer.

13:57

But the process of going through and understanding and educating yourself and knowing what your need is and what your ability to pay and what things would look like helps then not even limited to knowing whether you get divorced or stay married, but it helps you know the pathway for that.

14:17

Maybe you would separate first.

Maybe you would do a lot of things first.

Maybe you need several, you know, conversations.

You know, I have a client now who needs to go see some estate planning attorneys and real estate attorneys before to clarify some documents before getting financially clear.

14:36

So there’s so many elements here that people can’t even know what to Google or know what to put in that, that to get the responses.

And I think more and more it’s, it’s becoming a, a, a pitfall when people are going through the divorce process because there’s so much noise around the decision making.

15:02

Right.

And there’s a lot of nuance to divorce, right?

And you could change one little thing that doesn’t seem like it would, it’s important to you.

But for example, you could tell it to me as a divorced professional, as somebody who’s been doing this for decades, and I can say no, no, no, that matters a lot.

15:19

You got to know, is it A or is it B?

Because that changes everything financially.

It’s the same way, you know, is that an investment account or is it a four O 1K account?

Huge difference.

So knowing that the devil is in the details, as they say, and you’ve got to know those details and to rely on something digital, you know, getting input from the Internet or from AI, why not, right?

15:47

But to rely on it is a bad idea.

In time, it probably will get better, but right now especially, it’s not where you need it to be to base a decision that’s going to affect the rest of your life.

And it also doesn’t help you brainstorm.

16:04

I mean, people who are stuck in do I stay or do I go?

It’s not a binary decision.

You think it is and that’s why you’re stuck.

It’s either, you know, I go down this path, which is scary, or stay on this path, which is also scary, right?

16:19

So, you know, in different ways.

But there are, to your point, Karen, there are different options.

You could separate, You could do a trial separation.

You could decide to, you could workout a financial arrangement where you’re still legally married, but you live separate lives.

16:39

There are a lot of options that people don’t think about.

You know, you can have what I call a legacy marriage where you’re staying together to keep the financial estate together, but you make other agreements personally in the relationship that allow you to have some happiness, that allow you to grow, be peaceful, live more of the life that you want.

17:04

But you can’t choose those things if you don’t even know they exist.

Yeah, and you can’t really use what people tell you, the noise we’re all talking about in AI to stand your own ground.

So, you know, my problem with the AI is, and I don’t use it, so I don’t know.

I mean, I, I don’t, I don’t use it by myself to know much about it.

17:22

But what I do know is in divorce or in life in general, you have to be able to be committed to your decision, right?

So if you decide to stay, you stay knowing why you’re staying.

You know the facts that you know the finance and for us it’s all financial, right?

17:38

So financially has emotions attached to it and everything.

So if you can have a good foundation financially and understanding, you’re not going to get that from anyone but yourself.

You know, yes, we do have a great process to get you informed, educate you, but it’s you who has to make that decision on how comfortable you are.

17:56

And if you stay, do you stay because you have a new financial arrangement with your spouse where you’re more in control?

Because I feel like when you get divorced and I’m divorced twice now, that you reclaim your independence in a way, right?

That’s why a lot of times it feels good because even though it’s scary because you’re making these decisions on your own, it still feels good because you, you, you’re, you’re doing it for yourself, your family.

18:20

But you’re doing it.

So you can stay married with the new financial arrangement as long as you feel like you’re independent.

I think when particularly women, when you don’t have independence, I don’t know that you’re ever really truly happy.

You know, independence gives you so much happiness.

18:39

Even if you’re staying in a marriage, if you claim your own independence in your marriage for whatever that is defined as, then you can go on and live happily stuck.

Yeah, it’s it’s about connecting, understanding your situation, connecting with your reasons why there’s a agency placing in a big part in this.

18:59

There’s a big difference in saying, OK, financially, I’ve looked at the numbers and getting a divorce right now would give me a lifestyle I don’t care to have, right.

So I’m choosing to stay in this marriage.

We’re going to rearrange the rules in this way, this way and this way, but I’m choosing this and I’m free to make a different choice at any point in time versus I’m stuck.

19:27

I can’t do this.

My life sucks.

I then you feel like somebody is doing it to you, but once you understand your numbers, once you understand your reasons for why you’re staying and you chose it, it feels entirely different.

19:45

And to your point about the AI, there is one thing that AI doesn’t have and can never have, and that is your gut and your intuition.

And any good decision is going to be a combination of head, heart and gut.

20:01

And AI doesn’t have your heart, it doesn’t have your gut.

All it’s got is the data, the, the knowledge part, the head part.

But without those two other parts, you can’t make a good decision.

That’s why my process with people to help them in decision making brings all three of those things.

20:20

And you need to understand, you know the, the numbers, you need to understand a lot with your head, but you also need to be able to feel your heart, check in with your gut.

And then when all three are aligned, that’s when you’re able to make a good decision.

20:38

You might not like it because you know you’re going into something that’s going to be painful temporarily.

But if you know that the reason that you’re doing that is so that on the on the other side of it, you have a whole different life, a life that makes you happy and lights you up.

20:54

Now you’re aligned with your why and now you can do it.

So having your clients recognize when it is the right time.

It’s, well, it’s a couple things.

I always start with the head, right, because if your head is going na, na, na, yeah, you’re going to die, you’re going to die.

21:12

You can’t get past that right.

So first it’s let’s be practical.

Let’s look at the numbers, let’s look at the situation.

Let’s brainstorm options.

Let’s get all of that online and then it’s about doing some soul searching and digging inside of you and saying, what does my heart feel like?

21:32

Do you even you may still care about your spouse?

Do you love them?

Do you love them the way you should love a spouse or you the way you want to?

I shouldn’t shouldn’t say should the way you want to love a spouse.

Do you have the relationship that you want to have?

And then there’s always the gut check, which is the physical.

21:51

It’s the, you know, I don’t know if you’ve ever been in the situation where you tell yourself, no, I’ve got to, you know, I, I’ve got to do this.

It’s the right thing to do.

But every time you go to do, you know, go to make a move, you’re like, or you get sick or I the the biggest story, it’s on the other side of Doris that that I have a friend of mine was engaged to be married to this guy and they’ve been dating for years and they were the perfect couple and all the things.

22:18

And one day, I think it was around Christmas, he proposed and just she just immediately threw up.

I mean she.

Couldn’t.

Could not like and that kind of told her everything she needed to know about whether to accept the proposal or not right?

22:34

And that’s what I mean you check in with your gut.

You see you, you ask yourself, where does this decision land in my body?

How do I feel about it?

Does it make me tighter and smaller?

Or do I feel like yes, this is this is expansion, this is soul satisfying, right?

22:53

How do you feel?

And AI can never tell you that.

That’s so true.

So when we’re talking about that particular piece of it and that, you know, it’s like, like you said, the brain and your gut, it’s not few times that people will come to us for financial clarity and they want to know the information, but then their spouse says, oh, let’s work on it.

23:23

That’s fair, right?

Let’s work on it.

And my response many times is, OK, so while you’re working on it, will you have access to the financials that you said you didn’t have when you came to us?

And that was the biggest reason that, you know, you’re choosing to get clarity so you know what it looks like.

23:42

So in this interim time, will you insist I, you know, I would like access, I would like cash flow.

I would like, you know, autonomy with my ability to spend money more than not, I hear, Oh no, my spouse would get too upset and then we would have trust issues and but.

24:04

Then it comes back to where all of this starts.

So we haven’t talked about that yet, which is what do you want?

What kind of a life do you want for yourself?

And this gets more poignant the older you get because you start to see that you have less years in front of you than you do in behind you.

24:26

Probably, right?

No one knows for sure.

But what how do you want to live your life?

And if the problem that brings people to you in the 1st place is I don’t know my numbers, I don’t have access to data, I am worried about my financial life.

24:47

I don’t have financial clarity.

And their spouse wants to work on the marriage but doesn’t want to give them that clarity.

Then right out of the gate, they are never going to solve the.

Problem.

Well, right, Because there’s no trust there.

25:02

If you can’t give someone a document, then there is no trust.

Right.

And if, if the, if the problem that she’s trying to solve, you know, is that I don’t have, I don’t know what I have or what I don’t have.

And I don’t know how any of this money stuff works.

I’m in the dark.

25:18

And he’s saying, honey, stay, let’s work on the marriage.

But I’m going to keep you in the dark.

No matter how much you work on the marriage, you’re still in the dark.

You have not solved the problem, right?

So you’ve got to stop and ask yourself, what do I really want?

25:34

Am I OK with being in the dark for the rest of my life and hoping things work out right?

Well, opium is a really bad life strategy, you know, So you want to make sure if that’s what your issue is, then I think it’s fair, Karen, to your point to say to your spouse, look, I want to work this out.

25:54

But in order for me to do that, here’s what I need.

I need the data.

I need the financial clarity.

Are you willing to do that?

And if your spouse says no, then then it’s a non starter or you know, it’s just you, but you’ve got to decide what is the problem you’re trying to solve?

26:16

What do you really want?

And it’s complicated.

I mean, that’s why working with people like you to get financial clarity, working with someone like me to get coaching so you get clear in your head so you can figure out what do I really want is critical because there’s so much swirling around in there.

26:33

It’s just a big mess, but working with people who have a process for identifying you do this, you do this, you do this and then you figure it out is a beautiful thing.

And if you can work on your marriage 100%, if if that’s going to workout, 100% do that.

26:53

But it But on the off chance that it’s not going to workout, you know, you’ve also got to understand you’ve got to keep things going like you still got to get that financial clarity.

There’s no other way around it.

And if your spouse isn’t willing to do that, that tells you how much they’re really willing to work on the marriage.

27:16

So true.

And even with great divorce, you know, great divorce is difficult, particularly on women, because it’s a you feel guilty, you know, it’s a guilt driven process because there’s no real reason.

It’s typically not a cheating situation.

A lot of times the women have nothing bad to say about their spouses other than listen, 30 years and we’re we’re just different.

27:38

I want, I grew differently, he grew differently and I want to live differently and he should want to live differently, you know, but you need to have financial clarity and you need to unravel your emotions, which is why I like they go to your process and they work on the emotional piece.

You don’t need an attorney for that.

27:53

And then to come through our process and work on the financial piece, you don’t need an attorney for that.

So when you work through all of that, you probably need a limited amount of time with an attorney to make sure your legal rights are all being covered or your agreement is being written, even if you get a post nuptial agreement right.

28:10

So it does matter how you start and move through the process so that you can make the right choices for yourself. 100% And when you have that clarity, here’s the difference when, when you are clear that you wish this could work out, but you know in your heart, in your gut, in your head that this is not the path for you.

28:31

You can move through your divorce with a strength and a courage that you can’t move through it with.

If you’re constantly saying, did I make the right decision?

Should I try again?

Should we, you know, should we go to marriage counseling, you know, blah, blah, blah.

28:46

If you’re constantly in this tug of war with yourself, you’re not going to be as empowered when you’re going through the divorce process.

And if you, even if you do go through it, when that’s your headspace, you come out within, first of all, an entirely different experience of the divorce and likely a very different result, right?

29:09

So it’s people don’t think about it, but there’s a mindset that goes with this.

There’s internal work that goes with moving through a divorce in an empowered way, in a way that leaves you healthy and whole at the end of it, so that you can start your next chapter from a place of strength versus having to spend the next 10 years after your divorce and therapy because you’re so screwed up.

29:36

Yeah.

And you know, in the grade divorce area, it, it’s often that if they, if our clients or any person going through the divorce process doesn’t have that mindset or that clarity or that focus of moving forward and very committed to that.

29:57

They, to your point, I like that you said that they, there’s a lot of polling going on and usually it’s inclusive of their adult children or young adult children.

And that’s how they get involved.

And that’s not good for anybody.

30:15

It’s very taxing on their children.

Kids, even if they’re adults, right?

Your children are your children and they will be your children until all of you die, right?

So they feel, and as you age, they, the, the tables turn, they start to feel more responsible for you versus the other way around when they’re small, right?

30:38

So they have a tendency to get sucked into your emotional drama if you and your spouse are fighting, especially in a divorce.

Or they’ll say keep me out of it, but it hurts them.

They see what’s going on.

They see the fightings, the fighting, especially holidays come along.

30:57

Now, what do they do?

They can’t put everybody in the same room.

Do they go to mom?

Do they go to dad?

Do they?

Nobody’s ever happy.

The kids are totally pulled apart and they feel responsible not for your marriage falling apart.

31:13

That’s not their issue at that point.

They feel responsible for your well-being.

So if you go through a divorce and you’re depressed and you’re crying all the time and you’re upset and you’re an emotional wreck after the divorce, your kids feel like they need to do something to help you, to fix you, to support you.

31:33

And then when they’re doing that, that automatically puts them at odds with their other parent, right?

And they usually most kids love both of their parents.

And so it just puts them in a really tough place.

And a great divorce can send your kids to therapy, right, If you don’t handle it right.

31:54

And you just, you don’t want to do that.

No parent wants to do screw up their kids.

I I mean, unless they’re a psychopath or something.

But you do it unintentionally.

You do it because you don’t see what you’re doing.

All you see when you’re in that kind of extreme pain or not or or financial fog or emotional fog, when you’re in that state, you don’t see what you’re doing to the people around you, including your children, right?

32:25

So getting, I mean, no matter how you slice or dice it, the word is clarity.

Getting clarity over your finances, over the state of your marriage, over what do you want for the rest of your life, over what kind of relationship do you want with your kids?

32:41

Where do you want to live?

How do you want to live?

Getting clear about all of that makes the rest of this fall into place so much easier.

And it also makes your divorce cost a whole lot less.

Because I can tell you from decades of being a divorce lawyer, the hardest thing was, you know, a client would come to me and say, I want X cool, got it.

33:05

So I would be in court fighting for X.

And a week later they’d say, no, no, no, I want Y.

And now you got to change, you know, and you’re, it’s like trying to pin jello to a wall to get somebody to decide what do you want?

Well, if you’ve got that clarity going in, that’s not a problem.

33:23

And you, you know, you drop the cost of your divorce dramatically just by getting clarity on the front end.

Yeah.

And you, you know, we say this all the time, too, because people go hire an attorney that because of everyone else’s noise around them, they tell them who they’re supposed to go higher.

33:42

And when you don’t know what you have and what’s missing or how complex or uncomplicated your case is, you don’t know what type of an attorney you need.

So, you know, Karen mentioned it earlier, you know, a new client of ours who didn’t need the family law attorney right away.

She needed an estate planning attorney first.

33:59

There’s some things that needed to be changed, you know, before they went through with the divorce and both parties were on board for this.

So if they would have just both retreated to family law attorneys, this, this part of their estate would have been messed up.

They would have been in court for years over this.

So it’s really important to get, as we say, that financial clarity.

34:17

And we’ve been using that word a lot today.

Before you take that next step, it does matter how you start the process.

Hugely and sometimes people need, especially if in the the family, the marriage, there’s some sort of a business, one or both of the spouses own a business, right?

34:35

You need a business lawyer often times to start to sort out that aspect of your, your financial life and you know, start to tell you, OK, this is the kind of entity you have.

This is who owns what.

These are your options.

34:51

This is how we can keep the business alive moving forward because most people want to do that, right?

So you might need advice from a business attorney before you get to a family law attorney.

And just because of the way most attorneys are silent load these days, I mean, back in the day, one attorney would do.

35:09

They were the family attorney.

They did it all.

That’s rare.

Unless you live in a rural area where there’s not a big population, there’s not a big, you know, cadre of lawyers, you’re going to end up going to the divorce lawyer, the real estate lawyer, the estate planning lawyer, the corporate lawyer.

35:26

And so having the ability to understand what you need and know how to coordinate all those moving parts and what comes first, second and third is critical.

For sure, because you know, a lot of people think to and I think I’m may just be reiterating what you said when they go to the family law attorney and the family law attorney and you’ve experienced this Karen, you know, you see the business, you see the pension, you see the Bitcoin, you see anything that needs to be may may need a separate valuation immediately.

36:06

Oh, let’s you know, get a forensic and you will need a business valuation and we need appraisals and sometimes that’s that is being done and hired before the client even knows what they have and scope of work hasn’t even been discussed and they don’t understand that.

36:25

But the reason, and you could verify this, the reason for that is that an attorney doesn’t give financial advice.

So in order to address your clients questions, that is the response.

Well, you’ll have to get a forensic because I can’t value your business for you.

36:41

And so it’s kind of misunderstood by the client that they need a forensic.

Maybe, maybe not.

It’s just the questions that they’re asking would require that particular analysis.

Am I saying that correctly?

Yeah, I.

People, they throw around the term forensic or forensic accountant really loosely.

37:03

First of all, you.

Have to understand you don’t always need one and #2 if you do it’s expensive a for rent you’re not going to hire a a forensic accountant for 1000 bucks.

Right.

You’re dreaming, right?

The numbers go way bigger.

So first you have to analyze what do I need?

37:20

What level of professional do I need?

How much is it going to cost?

What am I likely?

What’s my upside of gain if I hire this person?

They find things.

What’s my downside?

If they find nothing, how much am I going to be out of pocket?

37:36

And you start to make a well reasoned decision once you’ve got all of that information.

But you also have to understand as a divorcing person, there is the Cadillac of service, which is A, a huge professional team, all of the bells and whistles, everything, all the i’s started and T’s crossed, but that cost you a lot of money.

37:57

Or there’s the Volkswagen, which also can get you to the grocery store, but not in quite as much style and not as much expense, right?

So the question is, what do you A need and B, what do you want?

38:13

Sometimes you don’t need the forensic account.

You don’t even need the business valuation.

If you know, if you have certain information, you have certain data and you make certain agreements with your spouse, you’re like, look, I won’t get the business valued if, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right?

38:33

Because if the business is going to be paying you, you know, through the business pays the spouse and then you’re getting spousal support and you know that the business valuation is going to cost however much it’s going to cost.

Maybe you make an informed decision that, yeah, I really don’t need that, especially if the business is a personal service corporation with one or two people in it.

38:55

Like valuing that is going to cost you probably more than what the business is worth, right?

So it’s about having, but again, having all of the data so you can make an informed decision of do I want the Cadillac or am I just as well, you know, just as happy with the Ford because they both get me to where I want to be.

39:21

Yeah.

So this is a great conversation.

I’d like to leave a couple of takeaways here for our lessons.

I’m writing a lot of notes as what you’re speaking, right?

So what I’m hearing is it’s really important to know what you want and what you need, which are two different things, right?

39:39

And you can’t do it without emotional clarity and financial clarity.

It’s just not going to work if you don’t have those two things.

You’re not, you’re not going to get what you want or you need what you need in either case.

And I also like the head, heart and gut, the way that you work with your clients, working on their head, their heart and their gut, because you know, women have AI know this.

40:02

We have a lot of men listeners.

So I’m not leaving you out.

But you know, I can always remember my mother saying, you know, women have a gut feeling all the time and they should always listen to it, right?

And don’t listen to all the noise around you and all the noise in your head.

You know, get that out in writing, write it down, work with Karen over some of that and come to us for the financial clarity and you’ll have a much better process moving forward.

40:26

Exactly.

For sure, Karen, thank you for bringing such clarity and compassion to a topic so many people really struggle to talk about and maybe even think about.

So where can our listeners learn more about you and your work?

The easiest place to find me is on my website karencovey.com.

40:46

That’s karencovy.com and I’m Karen Covey on all the socials.

Perfect.

So if you're navigating divorce or even just quietly questioning your marriage and want verified numbers, expert analysis and a clear plan before you talk to attorneys or mediators, visit azure-emu-499854.hostingersite.com/ to learn about the MD's financial portrait.

41:09

And join the MD’s community.

It’s a free, supportive space with expert guidance, resources, and the live Q&A events where you can ask us questions about without any pressure or judgement.

We’ll put all of the links in the show notes today and to your listen to our listeners.

41:25

Don’t just like or share.

Leave us some comments.

We can always have Karen back on.

Take a breath.

You don’t have to decide everything today.

Protect your peace and let knowledge be your power.

Thanks for joining us on another episode of WeChat Divorce.

We hope this episode was informative and supportive on your divorce journey.

41:45

If you're looking for more support for navigating divorce with confidence and clarity, head over to azure-emu-499854.hostingersite.com/ for more podcast episodes, divorce events, and resources for your divorce.

We’ll see you back here for our next episode.