154. Peace Over Power Struggles: Co Parenting Through Chaos

0:01

Welcome to WeChat Divorce, hosted by Karen Chellew, Legal Liaison and Catherine Shanahan, CDFA.

Each episode we sit down with divorce professionals and industry experts to provide insights and frank discussions about real people, real situations, and real divorce to help you achieve your best life post divorce.

0:39

Welcome back to WeChat Divorce.

I’m Catherine Shanahan, your guru of creative financial options, here to help you protect your future with confidence and clarity.

And I’m Karen Chellew, legal liaison and fierce protector of your wallet.

If your ex antics have been draining your energy and your bank account, then today’s episode is for you.

1:00

So.

Today Karen, we’re talking about peace over power struggle with a Co Parenting through Chaos therapist.

Yeah.

So I feel like we’ve been talking to a lot of parenting experts recently.

1:18

Yeah.

So it’s going to be interesting because I feel like in Co parenting over 50% of them, it’s it’s chaos, right?

Yeah, it is.

And a lot of disagreement and then not understanding how everything works.

And then that just layers on, layers on.

1:35

And, you know, I also find that parents can sometimes have discussions with their kids very specific to finances that really is not helpful or even appropriate.

1:51

It’s a great word.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It’s tough.

It’s really tough.

And I know that, you know, parents think that their kids, especially if it’s teenagers or older, should be their best friend.

And we forget that they’re not our we’re not their best friend.

2:07

You know, we’re at the end of the day, we’re still their parent.

And so is there other spouse, I mean, you had their other spouse, your your ex-spouse to be, you know, that’s never going to change.

So you need to get a best friend and not use your kid as your best friend.

2:23

I, I know even me personally, I can remember one time my daughter saying to me, mom, like, don’t tell me that, you know, or stop.

Like, you know, she didn’t want to hear some of this stuff.

And I thought, whoa, OK.

Yeah.

That was an eye wakening experience for me.

And I quickly realized my kids were really young when I went through my divorce.

2:45

But I quickly realized that they could complain about their father all day long on repeat, but the moment I had anything negative to say anything, it was not received very well at all.

3:01

That’s so true, Karen.

Yeah, I think that’s what I did too.

Yeah, I I just learned quickly to just not engage.

I would let them talk and and I learned to just say, you know what, we’re going to be OK, we’re going to get this done.

I’m sorry you’re going through that.

3:17

But let’s, you know, I don’t know, go on a hike or go on a walk or something and do something else because.

Said we weren’t best friends then we would have been on speed dial.

All right, well, let’s hear what she has to say.

3:34

All right, And we’re here welcoming Dr. Tara Eagan, someone who’s been helping families find calm after the storm.

Tara is a licensed clinical mental health counselor and the owner of Eagan Counseling and Consulting in Charlotte, NC.

3:52

With more than two decades of experience, she’s been a guiding light for children, teens, and parents, especially those navigating the challenges of separation and divorce.

Doctor Egan specializes in Co parenting, counseling, parent coordination and reunification therapy.

4:09

And today she’s going to help us unpack how parent coordination can be a game changer, saving families stress, emotional strain, strain, and even legal fees.

Tara, welcome to WeChat Divorce.

We’re thrilled to have you here.

Thank you so much for having me.

4:25

Of course, looking very much looking forward to the conversation.

But before we dive in, I’d love for you to share a little bit about your story.

What led you to this work?

How did your practice evolve to focus on supporting families during and after divorce?

Absolutely.

So I originally started as a school psychologist and was working in schools.

4:43

And, you know, obviously, as any school professional can attest, there’s so many kids who walk through the school doors coming from families who are experiencing separation or divorce.

So you kind of just, you know, naturally have that interaction with these families.

4:59

And as a school psychologist, you are working typically with children who exhibit some sort of specialized learning need.

And the parents need to do their best to collaborate, to plan for their child’s education.

And so there was times where there was a difference of perspective between parents as far as how their child should be supported.

5:22

And so that’s like a really, you know, like early taste in my career of like where parents who have struggled to Co parent together can have a significant impact on a child’s well-being over time.

I went through my own divorce.

I experienced what would be termed a high conflict divorce.

5:41

And this was now 15 years ago.

So it’s a long time ago, thankfully.

And I, you know, have naturally had compassion going through that myself and seeing what kids were faced with.

And as I left the school system and started opening, you know, my own private practice.

6:00

And then of course, I worked with children and teens and, you know, of course their parents too, and saw the the high percentage of kids who are faced with this.

And sometimes it was parents who weren’t separated or divorced, but kind of had a degree of conflict in their relationship that kids really couldn’t escape from because they lived full time with these parents in the home.

6:22

And so over time, I started seeking out training.

You don’t connect with colleagues who had experience in it.

Several years ago, I did additional training to be what’s called a parent coordinator in North Carolina, where even though my training and background is as a therapist in a parent coordination role, you are not a therapist.

6:40

You are an extension of the court system and you are supporting parents and following their custody agreement and helping them make decisions if they disagree or if something is really vague and in agreement and a decision needs to be made.

Rather than waiting weeks or months and sometimes on occasion in years to get a spot in the courtroom in front of a judge in a parent coordinator role, you can support parents and you can actually make rulings so that they can move through the the day-to-day, you know, decision making that needs to occur for kids and keep them out of the court system and, and minimize their their requirement or the need for them to keep attorney on retainer.

7:22

So my role is really fleshed out over the years to include not only counseling with kids and families, but also doing Co parenting work in in like a therapeutic modality of it falls into the category of therapy.

7:39

And I’m, I’m operating as a therapist to doing Co parenting work under the umbrella of parent coordination, which is not a therapist role, but they are, there’s a lot of, you know, connection points in that type of work.

And then doing what’s called renification therapy, where there has been like a disruption in the relationship between a parent and a child, you know, typically as as a result of divorce.

8:05

And then we’re doing family work in order to help re establish a healthy relationship between that parent and child.

So there’s kind of different hats that I wear in this work, but it all sort of focuses around that topic of separation and divorce.

Yeah, but, you know, it’s also very interesting.

8:22

And I know if you’re listening, you may feel like I felt, and that was OK, I’m getting a divorce and I’m messing my kids up, you know, and that’s a hard thing to bear on a mother, right?

So you did say something that I appreciate.

And you said, you know, it’s not always in divorce.

8:38

You know, you said even married couples, I’m working with children who act like this at home.

So, you know, find a little piece if you’re listening, that it doesn’t necessarily mean because you’re getting a divorce, you’re having a hard, hard time communicating with your spouse and that your children could benefit from these services as well.

8:55

Absolutely.

It’s kind of a really mean thing to tell your brain that you’re failing as a parent because you got divorced.

A lot of situations there is an opportunity for a much more healthy dynamic in the home environment or both homes.

Like, OK, your child might not have might now have two homes, but to have two homes that are healthy is, you know, so much better for that child’s development than in research support system, having one home where there’s a lot of conflict or discord or unlike emotional volatility.

9:27

So sometimes when I’m, you know, getting to know parents and we talk about where the strengths are for those parents as well as their children to form a new household that isn’t racked with conflict or poor communication or poor conflict resolution or routines that are, you know, kind of missed mixed messages within that home.

9:51

And it’s causing a lot of distress.

And kids like this sometimes is the beginning of a like a healthy, you know, life change versus immediately viewing divorce as to be like, OK, now this is sentencing my child or children to be like maladjusted.

10:07

I don’t think that’s a truthful statement.

I don’t think research supports that.

And it’s certainly not kind to yourself as parent if you’re sending your mess yourself messages of like disparagement or shame.

Yeah.

You know, I have a question because I believe in a high percentage of the divorces.

10:24

A lot of parents firmly believe that the children, they want to create a way for the children to remain in their home, whether it’s nesting or whether one parent that stays with them.

What is your approach and take on that?

10:41

Nesting is a topic that parents often bring up when we they first are like initiating the the the steps of separation.

And I have never seen nesting be successful long term.

It’s typically something that is can be a really helpful tool in the beginning stages of separation, especially if one of the parents is it takes a little time for them to acquire stable housing.

11:07

So maybe they’re waiting for a local apartment building to open up and maybe they’re acquiring the funds to get furniture to make sure that they have the belongings in their new home that’s going to support with the children need.

Maybe they’re staying with a parent or a family member for a bit of time, how they situate, like figure out what their next steps are.

11:26

Maybe there’s there’s a job change for one of the parents.

Maybe they need to figure out where a pet can can be.

And so sometimes there’s just this period of transition and things just need to get situated.

And so nesting can be a really good option and it allows the kids to adjust to the idea of having time delegated to each parent because typically with nesting, we have, you know, one parent step away from the home environment and have the other parent, you don’t have some autonomous it’s parenting time.

11:54

And then they switch, switch spots.

And to keep the conflict low, we really encourage parents to not trying to try to force, you know, sharing dinner together or both sitting around the family room, you know, watching a movie.

Because often times the pain and like grief that parents are experiencing is just too disruptive to the kids world.

12:16

And, you know, you’d be exposing them to unnecessary conflict and conflict that’s really stressful for their well-being.

So with nesting, it’s typically something that’s done in the first weeks or months.

And you know, with setting the goal that parents are going to be able to form autonomous households for their children.

12:36

And I think kids being in a, in a, a home environment that feels really familiar can be really helpful.

But really, kids want to have access to their parent.

They want to have their favorite items.

They want to know what part of their routine is going to be the same.

12:53

Can they still go to Sarah’s birthday party on Saturday?

Can they still do summer camp?

Are they going to stay at the same school as dad?

Still going to coach their their football team?

Like those are the things that matter and there’s a lot of families who have some sort of transient circumstances, whether it’s upgrading to a a bigger house or moving because they want to be in a different school district or grandma moves in for a while.

13:19

Like kids undergo change for a lot of reasons throughout their childhood and childhood and kids often times have to readjust their living circumstances.

And if parents can set them up for success by remaining calm, being generally positive, making sure their environment has what they need, they are going to adjust well to it.

13:43

If we act like they’re a victim because they need to go to the other parents home, which is a newer environment, and we present it as like, you poor thing, this is so awful for you that you have to go to dad’s apartment, then yeah, they’re going to view it that way and it’s going to be viewed as something negative or something that caused causes them to be disadvantaged versus like, you have two homes, you have parents who love you, you have some opportunities to make some choices in both places.

14:11

You know, we want your friends to feel welcome.

We want you to maintain your routine.

And this can be something that supports our family and being calmer and really focused on the kids instead of the conflict with the parents, with each other.

So as you know, we do the financials for couples going through divorce, right?

14:29

So how many times does money conflict come into play when you’re working with these children or these families?

I would say almost 100% of the time.

And what are the sort of things that they say?

Well, often times the parent, you know, there’s in a situation where there’s two parents, there’s almost always a leaning out partner and leading in or just kind of if we’re looking at, you know, parallel lines, you know, there’s a parent who’s just kind of upright and I’m in it to win it and I’m going to, you know, put 1 foot in front of the other and I’m staying in this marriage.

14:59

And then there’s a parent that has initiated separation or divorce and the parent who is the leaning out partner has often gone through so much of their grief and processing.

And the other parent can feel really blindsided.

15:15

And oftentimes the parent that is at a financial disadvantage, you know, so they either earn less money or maybe they’re a stay home parent.

They are often the one who is more reluctant to leave the relationship.

And so if they feel blindsided, they feel very financially stressed.

15:32

They feel like, how can I possibly do this?

And meanwhile, the parent who’s leading out parent who may be at a financial advantage has probably done some planning to protect their finances.

And I don’t mean they’re necessarily withholding or, you know, they have some malicious intent, but people are pretty naturally protective of their assets or their portion of the assets.

15:52

And their portion is going to be based on what they feel or what they perceive to be their, their pile doesn’t necessarily even translate to what’s like legally required in that state.

So often times there’s a lot of fear about, OK, we’d be creating 2 households, which means more expenses.

16:11

One parent might have more access to two assets than the other.

So there can just be so much fear and panic about that.

And so it’s like you’re in this torment.

Well, on the one hand, you might need some time and space to grieve the ending of this relationship.

16:26

On the the other hand, you’re a feeling extraordinarily fearful about your own financial stability or housing stability.

And so there are parents.

Even when by most people’s standards there is plenty of assets to support 2 houses and the child’s needs, there can still be so much fear around it and it can cause a lot of gravitation towards attorneys.

16:51

And that can be a really expensive road to go down because to have two attorneys, you know, and in my area, Charlotte, NC attorneys might cost 350 an hour.

They might cost 650 an hour.

And you know, you can be spending 10s of thousands of dollars in the course of the month.

17:12

And the you might be spending more money and legal fees than you even have an assets.

But people are so are experiencing so much fear and then if their support system also has similar fear for them, then there can be, you know, people in your life that are encouraging you to be more aggressive with attorneys.

17:34

Like it can just be a really difficult cycle.

And it also not every parent has the same sense of like sense of responsibility to provide for their ex or their children, you know, financially, some parents feel so much pride and, you know, a sense of responsibility in supporting their family or their children financially and others don’t have that same mindset.

18:02

We hear a lot of people who are using their kids as pawns.

Basically, you know, I your kids can’t come see you unless you give me money for this or you know, I’m not going to do that.

I’m not going to agree that 5050 custody because I want more money.

18:17

Like it’s used more of a power struggle and actually using your kids as a pawn.

So I, I hate the idea of the kids feeling like, you know, they caused that financial strain on their parents or, you know, we’ve often had clients tell us that what their spouse tells the kids, they can’t because mommy took all my money or, you know, I need to get that because mommy has my money and she’s got to pay for that, you know, and which is not always not true, right?

18:44

So how do you help couples deal with that go that power struggle?

Now I do want to just kind of start off by noting that accusation is almost always made like if you talk to both parents, they’re making that accusation about the other.

19:00

And so just because a parent says that’s what their Co parent is doing does not necessarily make that true.

And so as the helpers, right?

So financial advisors, attorneys, therapists, like we’re all the helpers.

And if we as a helper are doing something that encourages a parent to lean into a narrative that is potentially based on fear.

19:27

No, I don’t.

I don’t mean maybe I’m not saying it correctly.

I mean, the child is saying it, the child therapist, the child is saying.

Dad, but that might be because the parent is saying it.

So if a kid saying my dad says my mom’s taking all the money, it could be something dad said, Dad said to the kid, your mom’s taking all of my money.

19:46

Or it could be mom saying your dad thinks I’m taking all his money and he’s not.

Said that my dad’s taking the money.

And so it’s just as as the helpers, you know, I find when we redirect, OK, OK, let’s look at what expenses this child has.

20:06

What do we want to prioritize?

Do we want to prioritize this kid staying at this private school?

Do we want to prioritize the kids, you know, the marital home not having to be sold like I find then we when we get to a problem solving space.

Versus getting really focused on what one parent might have said or might not have said, you know, like we can stay in a productive problem solving space.

20:31

And there’s times where a parent did say something.

They said something on Week 2 after their spouse left the house.

And it’s now eight months in and that kid is really remembered that they remember seeing mom crying.

And but it doesn’t necessarily mean that moms repeated that ad nauseam over and over and over.

20:50

Like sometimes we just have to recognize like kids are really smart.

Kids pick up on stress points of parents and they will sometimes say things that they feel but haven’t actually been said.

21:05

And so we have to be really careful to recognize that can happen, not do any finger pointing, you know, try to stay in a place of non judgement and realize generally people are doing the best they can.

And how well somebody is doing in Week 2 or month 2 is very different than how somebody’s doing in year 2.

21:23

And so I’m more.

Concerned about and what’s often asked to us is, you know, how do you respond to your child when they say that?

So if most said that to me, I would have said, well, you know, that’s Daddy’s opinion and that’s something Daddy and I will talk about.

That was my response.

Yeah, deferring.

21:41

So what is the right response if your child is saying because you don’t want to say your dad’s a liar or that’s not true, or Oh no, I didn’t like there’s not, you shouldn’t come from a defense mode is what I’m asking.

But what are the tools that you would give to parents who are faced with that?

Because we hear that often.

Yeah, I think your what you said your suggestion of giving kids some simple reassurance of like, you know what?

22:02

Like our family’s going through a lot of changes and Dad and I or mom and I are figuring out how to make sure that you kids have everything you need when you, you know, when you’re needed.

And we’re talking that over.

And sometimes we’re going to agree about it and sometimes we’re not.

22:18

But like, we got you, you know, like we’re always going to take care of you.

I think when parents respond with kind of a breezy, sort of casual reassuring tone versus like indignation or like a sense of urgency, Honey, I need you to understand that I will.

22:36

I always do everything I can to make sure that you’re able to do piano.

Like that’s a lot of intensity versus like, girl, you better go sit back down on your piano bench because I’m going to want to hear that song when you play it in May.

Like my ears are ready to be hearing some fantastic piano.

And like, that’s going to be reassuring versus I mean, because parents will be like, I reassure her over and over and over.

22:58

And I’m like, well, that intensity you’re bringing to the interaction might actually be creating more stress in her versus being able to be lighthearted.

You know, a lot of parents will come and say, I think my parent, my Co parent is saying this negative thing about me might have to do with money.

23:14

Maybe it doesn’t.

Or, you know, I think my Co parent saying something about my new partner and I’m just like, you know, if you respond with this high degree of intensity, even if it’s not particularly defensive, but it’s just bringing a lot of energy and attention to it.

23:33

You’re sending the message to the kids that this is a big deal topic versus, oh, the other parents said something and you kind of treat it like, you know, a passing comment of like, you know what, we’re still working this stuff out, you know, but it’s going to be OK.

23:50

I mean, I, I like to tell parents like it’s, it’s important to acknowledge like things are going to be different, but it’s going to be OK.

You know, like we’re not acting like everything’s fine in the same and like, oh, you have nothing to worry about or you’re being silly for worrying like this is a worrisome thing, but we’re going to be OK.

24:08

Yeah.

So I also get a lot of questions and we we get a lot of questions in the extra expenses, especially when mom and dad or mom and mom, dad and dad aren’t agreeing.

So do you, when you start working with a couple, do you set ground rules to keep everybody on point relative to let’s just say summer camp tutoring, travel sports?

24:34

Travel sports is such an enormous topic because you know, some kids travel internationally.

So 1, you know, mom or dad just don’t have the funds to get there, things like that.

So how do you set the foundation for these types of conversations that go you know that are can be fairly far reaching?

24:55

That’s a really good question.

We definitely, I make sure in the beginning to give parents time to have a solo session.

So I will meet with both parents in a session by themselves and they’re kind of allowed to say anything they want, like if you know, and it gives me context about what the salient points are for them.

25:15

So if they feel really passionate about a certain topic, especially on behalf of their kids, or they want to give me context that would be helpful for me to know and not be interrupted by the other parent or feel judged by the other parent.

25:33

Like they have time to do that.

Now I’m kind of asking them to trust in me that I’m not going to just be like influenced or swayed or triangulated by the other parent.

Like we talked about my level of expertise and how I want parents to be able to say their version of events and knowing their version of events is helpful context for me to have.

25:53

So first we kind of start out by parents being able to sort of purge and, and tell me all the things they want to tell me that they feel like they want me to know.

Because they are also more likely to respond to my suggestions or recommendations if they feel like I have the background.

26:11

Because if they’re like, well, you don’t understand, you don’t know how he was or how she was and I make a suggestion, it can appear very like tone deaf.

So when they know that I know their perspective, that can allow them to lean into suggestions.

26:27

So as far as ground rules, we first start out with those solo sessions.

We talk about like kind of the rules of effective communication.

There is a a licensed clinical social worker named Bill Eddie and he wrote BIFF so brief, informative, firm and friendly.

26:43

You know that strategy and communication.

So often times that is one of the resources that I pull out from the beginning and give them some basic education about like what that looks like.

Sometimes we put boundaries around things like them using a Co parenting app like our family wizard versus doing texting or them trying to have a conversation in the driveway while the kids are there.

27:05

So there’s different strategies that I give psycho education and kind of set some ground rules around in the beginning so that we can set the stage for success.

And then when it comes to more nuanced conversations or like topical conversations, like there’s a difference between having the money and choosing not to use it this way versus you just don’t have the money.

27:28

But now that we have two households, international travel may not be accessible.

And it doesn’t mean that parent is a jerk.

Like things are going to change in this family dynamic.

And if you present it to your kid is well, your dad just won’t pay for this anymore.

He doesn’t even, you know, care about us.

27:45

He left US versus hair, but just going to look different.

And sometimes parents we talk about like, is this a kid who’s really invested in this?

You know, as they’re growing and changing and maybe they’re becoming more social or maybe now they’re living half, half of the time on a different part of town that causes them to have access to different things, interests, you know, like, we want to be able to grow with the kids.

28:09

And sometimes the reality is there is going to be an opportunity that isn’t there anymore because family circumstances have changed.

And once again, if it’s presented to the child, is there a victim?

They are suffering.

This is their parent letting them down.

28:27

This is terrible versus like, hey, things have changed.

And like, kids aren’t necessarily entitled to do international travel.

Like that isn’t required to have an upbringing that’s filled with opportunity and enrichment, you know, but parents also sometimes we have to figure out like, what are your priorities for, you know, if one parents like maybe they played college sports and so their kid having access to a really elite team is such a high value for them.

28:56

And maybe the other parents like this doesn’t, this isn’t going to be where I’m going to prioritize my resources or money.

Sometimes, like their final agreement reflects that like kid will be like parent A will give consent for the child to do this activity, but they’re only responsible for 20% of the cost.

29:14

So whose job is it too?

And how do you determine what’s the parent if they can’t afford it?

Who, what’s the parent that has to tell the child that, you know, listen, it’s just not in our budget anymore because I know if you’re listening, you’re the one that says I do it all.

I tell them all like why can’t my spouse tell our child we can’t afford it anymore?

29:32

Well, one thing that we have to learn really quick in this process is we can’t control what our ex-spouse does.

All we can control is how we communicate with our kids.

And so to say, well, why isn’t he or why isn’t she the one who’s doing that?

Like this is not a person who’s has a history of being emotionally responsive to you.

29:51

They’re not suddenly going to become an emotionally responsive person after you’ve split up and he or she feels you’ve taken at least 50% of their assets.

Like that’s not real a realistic ask.

So ideally we have parents who are working with a Co parenting therapist or their individual therapist or child based, you know, some helper that can give some advice and both parents agree to what the communication is going to be to the child.

30:19

Obviously we can’t guarantee that and just because your Co parent communicates in an unhealthy or toxic way doesn’t really give any kind of justification for you doing it.

Kids can tell you later on after they’ve gotten older that they remember the parent who was gracious and had dignity.

30:38

It doesn’t mean that you have to have toxic positivity or mislead, you know, pretend your ex is fantastic at something that they’re not.

But there is definitely softer ways or more gentle and child protective ways to convey things to say, hey, you know, dad and I have to come to the decision together and we both have to agree that you’re going to do travel soccer right now.

31:02

We both don’t agree.

And so we’re going to focus on having you do a different activity that’s more local versus getting caught in the technicality of the fact that dad said no and I said yes.

Like how do you think that that’s?

I can remember going to my act saying, OK, if you think they’re spending too much money, you go ahead and tell them what they have to cut out.

31:22

And he never would because he I knew he had the money to pay also.

So I could just remember saying, all right, you just tell the kids they can’t do that anymore and he didn’t and he paid.

So I like the expectation of don’t expect your spouse to be emotionally different post divorce if they weren’t that way pre divorce.

31:41

And that’s probably the best way you can go ahead and charge forward and work with your therapist on how to tell your children properly yourself, because you will be the one to tell them.

And nobody, nobody wants to be directed on how to spend their money.

31:57

And you know, yes, your ex-spouse may have a view of or like an understanding of your finances because they were your spouse for this many years.

But the fact is you’re in separate households.

And we can get super judgy on how our ex spends their money, but the bottom line is beyond what’s in that custody agreement, it’s actually not your business.

32:21

And if you walk around feeling like it is and feeling self-righteous or entitled to decide whether or not they’re spending their money well or not, you’re just going to spend a lot of time being in a space of anger and resentment versus saying, OK, you know, this is what the Child Support amount is.

32:37

This is what my Co parent has agreed to and this is what I’m going to operate in.

You know, my ex-spouse is very, very wealthy.

And like I just learned early on that if I get into a space of resentment thinking, well, he could pay for more things, I mean, that is only a detriment to me and my children versus me being like, oh, what’s the budget in my household?

33:00

How do I want to spend it?

I feel very proud of what I can offer my children because of my hard work and my household management and finances.

And that’s what I focus on versus me thinking, well, I can’t believe he bought a BMW and then didn’t pay as much towards college.

Like that is a lot of wasted energy.

33:18

And you also don’t really know what I mean.

You can have an ex who’s supporting his parents financially.

You can have, you know, maybe they have gambling debt.

Like, I don’t know.

But like we don’t really know the choices they’re making and whether or not, I mean, you just can’t get steeped in judgement.

33:37

It is only harming you.

Yeah, that’s really good.

So listening, if you’re listening, some key takeaways to peace over power struggles is #1 for me is to realize that your spouse’s emotional intelligence is not going to change post divorce.

33:55

So accept that.

Work with your therapist on good ways to communicate with your children so that they’re not, you know, carrying the burden of that.

And you know, if you’re struggling with, you know, the thought of you messed your kids up, I know I struggled with that for a lot of years.

34:11

Know that this is the same kind of power struggle you would have if you stayed married.

It’s the same kind of parenting.

So you can still work with the therapist about that.

So you feel better about your decisions that you’re making as well.

And know that you have these resources that you should go and use.

34:27

I mean, that is wonderful.

I didn’t know about these resources when I was going through my divorce.

So to know that we have so many professionals out there that can not only help you get financial clarity because that’s where we are at my Divorce solution, but to help you with the communication because communication is key for everything for your children moving forward.

34:46

And at the end of the day, we all know that’s the most important thing.

So thank you for sharing all of that with us.

You’re very welcome.

Absolutely, Catherine, you have to share your quote about divorce messing up your kids.

I don’t think we’ve heard that in a while.

I haven’t said that in a while.

35:02

I always say divorce does not mess up your kids.

It’s how you behave with your spouse before, during and after divorce that can mess up your kids.

I always say kids need one healthy parent.

And so ideally we would have two healthy parents, but kids need one healthy parent.

35:19

And I know I want to be that healthy parent.

Like that’s a place of power.

And so in satisfaction and in like grace.

And so if you can remember that and then work to be that healthy parent, you are winning, like winning for your kids, for yourself.

35:36

It’s it’s wonderful.

And by the way, that doesn’t just show up the day that you’re doing the healthy work.

It shows up probably when your kids are 30.

And so just be patient.

There’s never a time when it’s like too late to be healthier.

You know, like if your kids are out of the house and you’re like, well, I didn’t conduct myself well during that divorce and my kids are screwed up.

35:57

Like, everybody benefits from having people in their life who have grown and changed.

And I agree with what you said, Catherine, about like, if your spouse wasn’t healthy in your marriage, they’re not necessarily going to show it.

But I do disagree with like that they can’t change because I think a big motivator for a lot of the parents I work with is like getting divorced and realizing like, oh, my family now looks different.

36:22

Or I lost 50% of access to my kids because I didn’t show up appropriately as a spouse or as a parent.

And there is a lot of parents I see, especially because I do the reunification work, who absolutely decide to turn the page and create a new future for themselves.

36:41

Obviously there’s a ton you don’t, but sometimes the toxic, you know, mix or connection isn’t, isn’t always repeated as they move forward.

I mean, we think of the acts like we were with and we were like, Oh my gosh, why was I with that guy?

36:56

And then you choose differently.

And it’s like, well, they can do that too.

And so sometimes we get really stuck in our perception of our acts is based on the 10 years or 20 years we were married to them.

And like, even when they’re doing or they’re making better choices and it’s like we refuse to see it.

37:15

And it can be hurtful when it’s like, why are you making these changes now that we’re not together?

Like, why didn’t you do this when I asked you to?

And like, better late than never.

And there’s probably ways that you have changed that has really enhanced your kids.

And you want that to be acknowledged and validated too.

37:31

Doesn’t necessarily have to be from our ex, but like I just see, I mean, that’s literally the business I’m in.

It’s growth and change after divorce and I see it happen over and over where people grow and their ex is always the last person to recognize it and sometimes the only person who doesn’t recognize it.

37:49

Yeah, because I guess sometimes you don’t change in the way that you wish they had, which is OK too.

And I all about people changing and the work that you’re doing.

So I think that’s fabulous.

But I still am all about setting your own expectations.

So you are the healthy parent that you want to be, right?

38:04

Don’t rely on that change to happen sooner than later, or to even happen to the degree that you want it to happen.

You can still be that parent that you mentioned.

They need that one parent.

So work on yourself and your own health so that you can be that consistent parent for them.

38:20

The parent or the person we are with our ex is usually our least likable version.

Like my worst version of Terry Egan is the version that I am when I’m with my ex, and that I would guess that it’s the same for him.

And so everybody else in the world gets a shinier version of me than him.

38:40

And so that’s hard to be that person.

It’s hard to be him who every time he interacts with me, he’s seeing my worst version and it’s hard for me to see his worst version.

And so like, it’s unfortunate.

And there’s definitely Co parents who who get to a place of like peace and, and you know, even friendship like that exists.

39:01

But typically the version we are with our ex is our is our lowest, lowest functioning person.

And so you do need to operate in reality, but that’s why it can feel so frustrating when like other people are like, oh, he’s such a nice guy or Oh my gosh, she’s so sweet.

39:19

And it’s like, that’s not the version I see.

And it feels like almost a sense of betrayal or like what an idiot that they don’t see the my ex through the same lens I do, but they just don’t that X does not show up to anybody in their life the way they do when they’re with you.

39:34

That’s so true.

Well, this is a good place to draw a line under our discussion today because we certainly could go on for hours.

There’s so many more things we could talk about.

But thank you for being here with us today and for such a powerful and compassionate conversation.

39:51

We really appreciate that.

Well, as a professional who works with these clients, I appreciate so much the work that you guys do in the financial space because that can really make a difference.

In parents and families being able to move to life after divorce and like financial security, I know money doesn’t buy happiness, but it sure eases a lot of stress.

40:11

And the fact that you help these people do that is wonderful.

So I thank you for your work.

Thank you, Tara, where can our listeners find you and get connected with you?

My practice is called Egan counseling and consulting and so you can go to www.egancounseling.com.

40:29

I’m also actually on TikTok and nothing.

I’m like, you know, some big social influencer or anything, but I just at Tara Egan.

And so a couple times a week Ioffer like kind of, you know, 5 minute snippets on different topics related to divorce, particularly high conflict divorce when it comes to dealing with your Co parent, supporting your kids.

40:49

And so that has been something that’s been a helpful, helpful resource for the families I work with people who obviously are invested in this topic.

That’s great.

Thank you to our listeners for tuning in today.

And this if you found this episode to be helpful to you or someone you know, please like, follow and share.

41:08

You never know who may need this and what kind of support they’re needing right now.

Please send us a message.

I know we’ve been getting a lot of messages that we’re going to start reading at the end of our podcast so that we can address them in the best way.

So don’t be shocked if I send us any comments or thoughts that you have that you would like us to continue the conversation on.

41:28

And don't forget, if you're preparing for divorce or struggling through it, visit azure-emu-499854.hostingersite.com/.

We’re here to simplify the process with expert financial planning, education and community support.

And remember, knowledge is power and you are stronger than you think.

41:45

Until next time, stay informed, stay empowered, and keep chatting with us about divorce.

Thanks for joining us on another episode of WeChat Divorce.

We hope this episode was informative and supportive on your divorce journey.

If you're looking for more support for navigating divorce with confidence and clarity, head over to azure-emu-499854.hostingersite.com/ for more podcast episodes, divorce events, and resources for your divorce.

42:14

We’ll see you back here for our next episode.