137. Parenting Plans and Finances: Building a Blueprint for Co-Parenting Success

0:01

Welcome to WeChat Divorce, hosted by Karen Chellew, Legal Liaison and Catherine Shanahan, CDFA.

Each episode we sit down with divorce professionals and industry experts to provide insights and frank discussions about real people, real situations, and real divorce to help you achieve your best life post divorce.

0:39

Welcome to WeChat divorce Catherine and I will be discussing parenting plans and finances, building a blueprint for Co parenting success with expert legal insights from Nicole COVID attorney.

Well, before we invite her in, this is a very interesting conversation, right?

0:57

Because we all are parenting experts when we’re parents, right?

So I know you had a different experience than I did when you got your divorce because my kids were older, You know, I can’t imagine what it was like having them younger.

Yeah, it was really difficult.

And I was one of those parents who just presumed that I was the main caregiver, right, The main nurturer, for lack of a better word.

1:22

And so the courts would just, you don’t give me. Most of the time I would have latitude and I was just.

And I worked in a law office.

I cannot even say that enough.

I just presumed so many things and was, you know, heard.

1:39

But when you get in the court system, it’s just so different.

And, you know, I fought for everything that I always felt was right for them.

But at the end of the day, it the courts see it as a shared relationship, fairly sterile unless, you know, your spouse demonstrates that they’re a felon or they, you know, would be harmful to the children.

2:04

So yeah, it it was difficult and expected by the time I figured it out.

You what?

I said it inexpensive by the time I figured it out.

Yeah.

So I have a little different insight because, you know, my kids were older so we didn’t, I didn’t really have a parenting plan.

2:22

We didn’t put one in place and it worked out fine.

I still took care of mostly everything and he took care of mostly every expense and that worked out.

But I do have the experience during my 20 year marriage of raising 3 stepchildren.

And I can’t tell you, you know, it’s just coming to me right now.

Karen, as we’re talking about this, how many times I actually read his divorce decree, what the what the parenting time was because either she was late or she didn’t take leave the clothes that I sent them, that she didn’t send them back the clothes or they wanted to stay longer and she didn’t want them to stay longer.

2:55

And you know, the summers, what you know, we had a pool, they wanted to be there longer.

And you know, I just as a logical thinker thought, sure, it’s fine.

Well, that’s not the agreement.

You know, this is what the agreement is.

And Christmas, you know, we always got them at 1:00.

So then when I had children, I couldn’t go see my family.

3:12

I had to be home by 1:00 on Christmas Day, which ended up being fine.

I just treated them like they were my children as well when they were with me, which I think is really hard.

If your stepmom out there and you’re listening to this, I know, you know, looking at the parenting plan that your new husband put together with his ex-wife, it’s probably something you should read before you get married to make sure you can keep that in force.

3:36

You know, like I didn’t know that because I didn’t know anything about divorce.

I didn’t come from a divorced family and I just love these 3 little girls.

And I would just think that.

But I got mad so many times and I got mad at my husband at that time, which I shouldn’t have gotten mad at him because it was an agreement that was set up.

3:52

I should have known to read that agreement and say am I buying into this?

Can I do this?

And why not do that if you’re, if you’re getting married to someone or you’re married to someone, you haven’t read their agreement.

I think you should have trust enough to do that.

And it kind of feeds into what we even do.

4:08

Where’s the symmetry of information with your finances?

So, you know, divorce and marriage is about kids and finances most of the time.

So have that symmetry of information before you commit yourself to something that you just might not be able to handle.

Yeah, or not agree to, right, Because the kids are the ones that I say holding the bag.

4:31

Yeah, we went through that often.

You know what?

They didn’t show up for their sports activities or school activities because the stepmom believed that on their time they had a specific schedule and she would do crafts and things with them.

But, you know, she also believed they should be doing chores and all these things.

4:48

And she did not sign up for what we had negotiated, you know, relative to their music lessons, anything like that.

It just, well, we forgot or we don’t have time to, you know, whatever it was.

And then, you know, when you try to enforce that agreement, it’s expensive and it’s really not enforceable.

5:10

At the end of the day, it’s not something even if there’s another order.

So I’m not going to do.

It right and by the time you get another order, forget it.

The kids could be a year older.

Yeah.

And James change.

Yeah, and, and and the kids are in the mix of that dispute.

5:29

It’s not healthy.

It’s not good.

Right, I totally agree.

It’s all about the kids.

So I am looking forward to today’s discussion.

Let’s give her the benefit of the doubt of getting some good tips on parenting plans moving forward.

And you know what, if you’re listening, there’s another topic you want us to cover.

5:45

Please reach out to us and we’ll discuss that.

Send your comments to WeChat at ck11.net and we’ll put that e-mail in the show notes.

So now let’s welcome our guests so we can really get into this important topic.

And now we’d like to welcome attorney Nicole Kobus to our podcast.

6:04

Welcome, Nicole.

Hi guys, thanks so much for having me.

I’m.

So glad to have you and looking forward to our conversation today.

Today we’re going to talk about parenting plans and finances building a blueprint for Co parenting success.

I know every parent going through the divorce process wants this.

6:23

So in this episode, we’re going to be discussing how to balance custody, communication and cost with legal expert insights from Attorney Cobis.

But first, let me take a couple minutes to introduce Nicole.

Nicole is a partner and divorce family law attorney at Linda Burry, McCormick, Esterbrook and Cooper.

6:43

I’ve got them all.

Awesome in Westfield, NJ, Nicole dedicates her practice to the area of matrimonial law, matrimonial law and advises clients on matters involving divorce, custody, spousal support, child support, equitable distribution, and domestic violence.

6:59

She’s also an accredited New Jersey Family and Divorce Mediator and is skilled at working with divorcing party so that they can achieve amicable resolutions.

Nicole is also an approved New Jersey Parent Coordinator who helps parents implement a parenting plan and resolve day-to-day parenting issues.

7:20

Yeah, that sounds really hopeful.

You know, I love the implementation, but how do you get the execution?

It’s always tricky, right?

I mean, you know, that’s why you, you, you call them the experts.

You hopefully work together keeping in mind, you know, the children’s best interests.

And you hope at the heart of it, even though you might not want to be married anymore, you’re still going to be parents forever.

7:39

And hopefully, if you kind of keep that in the forefront, people behave and act accordingly.

Wishful thinking sometimes, unfortunately.

Yeah, that’s true.

And I, I just want to make sure we do incorporate this parenting coordinator.

I I think that’s a relatively new term in the last couple years.

7:57

So I just want to make sure we cover that.

But before we dive dive into our topic, Nicole, can you share with our audience a bit about your story of how your life experiences have brought you to do the work you do today?

Sure.

So I have been a lawyer now for over a decade.

8:15

I actually, this is a second career for me.

I went to college for public relations and marketing and I had an incredible career in the fashion industry, actually doing international marketing for a large multinational brand, meeting celebrities, planning parties, Fashion Week.

8:30

You know, I really, I mean, I look back at it was an incredible career, but I knew I always wanted to help people and I wanted to do more and studied for my LSAT.

And I remember telling my boyfriend at the time, now my husband that I was going to go to law school and I was going to leave this job.

8:47

And he’s like, OK, he’s like, here we go.

And I’ve never looked back.

And I was fortunate that throughout law school, I had incredible internships and opportunities and fell in love with family law.

I always knew that I wanted to be client thing.

I didn’t want to be in an office pushing papers.

9:02

I didn’t want to deal with corporations.

I wanted to deal with people.

And I was very lucky to get a clerkship for the presiding judge of the Family Division in one of the counties in New Jersey.

And then from there got recruited to the firm that I’m still at now.

I was the family law associate, became partner and then was elevated now to equity partner.

9:22

So I really, I really like making an impact in people’s lives and making a difference and being, you know, supportive of them.

And especially in an incredibly, not only trying time, but a time that people don’t expect to be in.

You don’t get married thinking you’re going to get divorced.

9:38

And I think that’s kind of the key that, you know, if you people thought that, then chances are they want to get married.

So, you know, it was, it’s taken a lot to get here and a lot to also own who I am and the kind of lawyer that I am and the way that I want to help clients.

And you know, it’s really staying true to myself and the way that I see things and the way that I hopefully help people not only get through such a hard part in their life, but also then start the next chapter of their lives on better footing with resources and things like that.

10:07

Wow, that’s remarkable.

Yeah, kind of did a 180.

That’s that’s that’s for sure.

But I’m, I’m glad when I look back on, you know, 21 year old Nicole, I didn’t want to go to law school then I wanted to work.

I needed to have those experiences.

10:23

I don’t think I could have done another three more years of school right after coming off of a four year degree.

And, you know, I went to College in Washington DCI got to experience great things there and, you know, all those opportunities.

I’m still in touch with so many people from, you know, my former life, but I find it really fulfilling now to be able to connect with clients and give them the right resources and tools.

10:43

And, you know, nothing is more rewarding than you hear from a client several years down the road saying, you’ll never believe this.

My first grandchild was born.

Here’s a picture.

You know, you’ll never believe this.

I just met someone.

We’re going to get married.

Can you do a prenup for me?

And you’re just like, wow.

Like, these are the people, you know, you remember them crying in your office.

11:01

And it’s so nice when you get to see them restart and, you know, celebrate, you know, positive and, you know, memorable milestones in their lives.

Well, you have fantastic energy, energy and that’s great to hear, especially the parenting Co parenting plan because I’m sure you need energy for that.

11:16

Yeah.

You know, parenting time is always the hardest to deal with in any cage.

You know, money is money.

You figure out how much you know you’re going to pay, how much you’re going to receive, how the assets get divided.

But you’re dividing your children, who are the most precious things in your life, is really hard.

11:32

And it is not common that people agree automatically, you know, those are that’s the rarities.

Because the reality is most people want 100% of the time with their their kids, right?

They didn’t sign up to be a part time parent.

And I think that’s often, you know, the hardest of trying to step out of, you know, you’re often like hatred for your spouse at the time and say, OK, but they are a good mother or father.

11:56

They might not be a good husband wife, but they still can be a really good parent.

And that’s, you know, that’s difficult.

And the sooner that people are able to come around to that, often the better and more productive the conversations are.

Yeah, I want to go into some of that for a variety of reasons, but let’s just start at what are the essential elements of a parenting plan.

12:19

This what?

Let’s just start there.

Like can you lay out what that outline is?

Sure.

So a parenting plan consists of first the legal custody, right, whether it’s going to be joint custody, whether it’s going to be sole custody, which is the legal decision making authority over your minor children.

12:36

And then it’s the time sharing, how much time each person is going to be spending with the child or children and on what schedule.

Then from there, you know, you flow down to how are you going to share holidays, which might be different than, you know, regular time sharing.

Sometimes depending on the family, you might have different time sharing in the summer, for example, then you have during the school year.

12:57

You have also how are you going to vacation?

You know, is each parent going to be entitled to a certain amount of vacation per year?

How are you going to decide who’s vacationing where?

What’s appropriate are they get our kids getting pulled out of school, things like that.

Those are kind of like the main topics.

And then obviously, depending on the family, there’s sometimes, you know, more nuanced things.

13:16

For example, one of the things that we deal with a lot, especially with like healthcare industry employees is they don’t often know their schedule and they have a rotating schedule.

So you can’t have a regular and reoccurring parenting time schedule because they don’t work the same days and they don’t work the same times.

13:35

So it has to be more free flowing.

There’s other industries where they work different schedules depending on the season and how, you know, you incorporate that And what do you do when, let’s say maybe someone works an overnight shift and, and you know, it’s not necessarily fair to the parent who doesn’t work overnight that they get all the overnights with the kids.

13:53

But then who’s going to stay with them?

And how does that get factored in?

So every every case has the same core elements, but definitely the way you look at them could be varied depending on the facts.

I think that’s the hard, the hard part for a lot of people.

If you’re listening and you’re saying, oh sure, my ex, soon to be ex doesn’t want to spend any time with the kids now or he’s often doing that and now he wants all of a sudden wants all these overnight stays and I’m the one that gets up with them and I’m the one that takes care of them.

14:21

So why is he going to get that?

You know that’s a hard pill to swallow.

It is.

And you know, I would say very generally in most marriages, successful or not, there’s division of Labor and not every spouse does every task.

So there might be one parent who’s never made a lunch in their lives, and there might be another parent who doesn’t even know what activities are on what days because they’re at work.

14:44

And another parent is either doing all the shuttling back and forth or is arranging for all the shuttling back and forth.

And as hard as it is to say that other parent has to learn, and yes, they might not cut the sandwich the way that the kids are used to, They might not pack those snacks the way that the kids are used to.

15:01

But if they want the time with the children and it’s safe and it’s appropriate and it’s in the children’s best interest, they get that time.

And, you know, often I have to give advice that I might necessarily not personally want to give, but I know that’s what the law provides.

15:17

And yes, that might mean that things are a little hard at first and the transitions are harder and there’s adjustments for the kids.

And I will not use this expression, but everyone says kids are resilient.

And it is one of my least favorite expressions in this entire, I guess, industry.

15:32

But the reality is everyone has to adjust.

And that period of adjustment is harder for some.

Do you think that a lot of people want to take more overnights because it affects their child support payment?

I don’t want to admit that the answer is probably yes, because I want to believe that you’re wanting time with your children because you want time with your children.

15:51

But yes, once you hit certain milestones in terms of the number of overnights, you get a significant decrease in your child support.

Granted, you then are also in theory paying more for your children because you are also you’re spending more time with them.

16:07

But it for some people I it probably is driven by finances.

And can you go back if all of a sudden they said they’re going to have them 50% of the time, but they don’t, they give them 10% of the time and get your modified?

Sure.

So custody and parenting time is always modifiable as a support, but the hurdles that you have to jump over and the things that you have to prove in order to have it modified is often larger because especially in New Jersey, the law views it that people are allowed finality and allowed to plan.

16:42

So once you’ve entered into an agreement and you have finality, the the law does make it more difficult to change that.

Is that kind of under the term of precedence or consistency what the children are accustomed to by then?

16:58

Well, that’s also part of it too, is that, you know, you you enter into whatever parenting time you’re going to enter into.

And so long as it’s working, it’s going to stay in place.

Obviously, if two people can come to an agreement and say this isn’t working for us, you can change whatever you want.

17:14

You know, I always tell clients that whatever’s on paper is kind of your fall back.

You can feel free to privately call each other and say, hey, I have a family wedding this weekend.

Can I have a kid?

Of course you can.

There’s no divorce police that comes after you to make sure you’re following the terms of it.

But absent an agreement otherwise, you are locked into what is in this document.

17:33

So and kids, no matter who they are, they do thrive on consistency.

They’re they thrive on expectations, They thrive on knowing what’s going on.

And you know, to the best that you can give your children that consistency so that they know, OK, on Wednesday, I’m going to be with mom.

17:49

So if I want to have a play date on Wednesday, I need to ask mom if I can have that play date.

They don’t, you don’t want your children to be in a position that they don’t know where they’re sleeping at night either and that it’s constantly, you know, ping ponging back and forth and they don’t know which end is up.

You know, that it affects academics, it affects emotions, you know, even and if they’re not outwardly showing it, you know, adults, We like consistency too.

18:10

No one likes constant change and are able to thrive well in that.

You know you want to have that stability in everyone’s lives.

Yeah, that’s a good point.

I want to go back to something that you said, though, and you said, you know, have this agreement to fall back.

There’s no divorce police.

And that, you know, if you’re listening and that we hear this a lot.

18:26

Oh, we’re just going to do what’s best for the kids.

We don’t really need the parent in agreement.

Really.

No, we promise we’re going to do this.

We promise we’re going to do that.

And I’m always like, we’ll just get it in writing.

And if you don’t want, if you 2 don’t want to follow it, fine.

But you need something to fall back on.

Yeah, not having an agreement is always dangerous because, yes, you hope that everything is hunky Dory and everyone still gets along.

18:46

They sit together at the soccer games and things like that.

But for most people, that’s not the usual path that they take.

And there is some animosity, there is some, you know, distrust, and there is some tumult that is put into the process when you get divorced.

19:02

So to the extent that you’re able to button everything up, it’s always better because at least everyone has a level of expectation that needs to be followed and often.

Again, another general statement.

Everything is great usually until one spouse moves on with someone else.

19:18

And then now you’re dealing with potentially another set of family that you know, and another spouse that has other children with someone else and the dynamics of that.

And what if, you know, do you want those weekends to line up so the kids are all together?

Do you want the weekends not to line up so you don’t have all the kids?

And where is everyone sleeping?

19:34

And is there enough space?

Are people moving?

You know things?

Life changes.

And to the extent that you’re able to at least give finality to your family and have to modify things maybe accordingly, you need to have a place to start.

Oh my goodness, 100%.

I had to learn that lesson the hard way, the $40,000 way.

19:55

My kids were really young and I believe that I was the best suited parent, right?

Because I did everything and my spouse didn’t.

But I had to learn at that.

At the end of the day, and to your point, Nicole and Catherine, that the spouses are going to be awarded time if it’s considered appropriate and most of the time it is.

20:16

And then if they’re at, you know, even if the spouse isn’t caretaking and they’re at their grandparents, that’s still going to be OK.

And then if they’re not taking them to their activities and you don’t have something in place, that just means another court fight.

And I, it took me a long time to come to terms with that.

20:37

You know, there was even a situation where my daughter needed to get picked up.

And I think it was her dad’s parenting time, but the school was closer to me, but they wouldn’t let her come with me because the custody order didn’t provide for it.

So they’re to your point, there’s so many dynamics that if they’re locked down because someone else probably will come into the picture and reframe your ex’s expectations and goals for the family when they’re at that household.

21:09

I I swear I learned the hard way and if I could go back and do it, I would take everything you’re saying at face value and adopt it because it is accurate.

And it’s really hard sometimes because it’s such an emotionally charged time in your life.

21:26

So to say that people are thinking clearly and are going to make the best decisions, I think is foolish because we all know that, you know when we’re emotional and when you know our life is being turned upside down on a path that we didn’t want.

We can’t be making the best decisions.

And what might be good for children who are, let’s say three and five isn’t going to be great for the same children when they’re 13 and 15, right?

21:49

And that’s often hard too, because these documents you want them to be living.

But if you’re not going to be able to work with your Co parent, you’re going to be stuck at whatever was good for three and five and have to figure out how to apply that to 13 and 15, which is also hard.

22:05

You know, I tell the example of Christmas morning is always a thing, right?

You know, a lot of times if you get divorced and your children are young, that is like, you know, the Seminole time, right?

No one wants to give that up.

And that sometimes completely changes everyone’s holidays, right?

22:22

Because there’s one day, right?

It’s one of the few holidays where it is one day and how you share that time and the new memories that you make and the new traditions that you make.

But, and yes, there are some cases where people agree we’re going to do Christmas morning together, forget about the new girlfriend, forget about the new boyfriend.

22:41

Like, we are going to come together and we are going to do this.

But that even that takes, you know, swallowing people’s pride, putting aside their feelings and, you know, putting on a good front for the kids, which, you know, I tell my clients all the time, regardless of how you might feel about this person, you want to be able to, on high school graduation, take that family picture right at the weddings.

23:01

You want to be able to pose for those pictures, then yes.

Do you have to just exchange more than pleasantries?

No, but we need to get to a point where that’s OK.

And for your kids, that feels good.

You know, that’s a problem if you say we’re going to meet every Christmas morning and then it’s you guys talked about, you know, when you’re 3, it’s different than when you’re 13.

23:24

So if you have that written in your agreement 10 years later, you still have to do that.

You all.

Well, that would be see, I, I’m a little different because my children were older.

So although their dad came on Christmas Eve to open the his gifts to them at our house, I would imagine that would be a really hard thing to have a three-year old that you have to say that the parents would have to get together every Christmas morning 10 years later when they’re probably moved on with other relationships and other kids, maybe even.

23:53

Well, and that’s the thing and that’s what’s hard is that, you know, you you get divorced when you get divorced and under the facts present at that time, you don’t know what life is going to hold for you.

You know, it’s just, it’s no different than if people if their jobs transfer them and then they have to move out of state.

And then what are you doing with parenting time?

24:09

You know, are you Clearly something has to change.

If you were once living close together, you know, things happen in people’s lives.

And unfortunately, even though you might not be a united family anymore, you still are some semblance of a family if you’re sharing children together.

Yeah, which is really great.

24:25

Where it matters how you go through this process so you can establish some kind of common ground.

Exactly, ’cause you have, regardless of how old your kids are, you still have major milestones even if you get divorced when your children are 30, if your children have kids, then you’ve shared grandchildren.

24:40

You know, it’s really hard to get away from each other once you have children together.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Do you believe I, I found this true in my case, that as the kids grew older, they had more latitude to modify their visitations with either parent.

24:58

They were acknowledged by the court system more once, that is.

Definitely true.

Yes, that is definitely true that the children do play some semblance of a role as they get older.

But you also hope, too, that, you know, at certain ages it is appropriate for your children to want to spend more time with their friends and necessarily be home with, you know, mom or dad, right?

25:23

And what’s hard is that when mom or dad, because they have less time with them, are like, no, you’re not going to your friend’s house.

I want to have dinner with you tonight.

And how to navigate that when it’s, you know, arguably appropriate for your children to necessarily like, you know, want to hang out with their friends and go to social events.

25:42

And a lot of times those happen on the weekends.

And, you know, unfortunately, you sometimes get parents who, you know, Nope, This is what the agreement says.

This is what we’re agreeing to.

You’re not going.

And does that cause resentment?

Sure.

Does that cause problems?

Absolutely.

25:57

Does it cause an issue of, well, when I’m at dad’s house, dad lets me do XY and Z, you know, and so even though you’re in two households, you still want to have some commonality so that there is a level of respect and rules that are followed still in both households.

26:13

You know, the example of especially now, which I am dreading when I have to be a parent, you know, to my daughter, but social media and cell phones and, you know, dad lets me charge my phone in my room at night.

Mom makes me leave it in the kitchen.

26:30

You know, well, that, you know, things like that that are even more nuanced for this generation coming up.

But it just it you still, it’s so important to have a united front for your kids because if not the kids just going to play one off the other and then that’s just going to create more hostility.

26:46

That’s just not necessary.

And there’s certain things too that I’ll say to clients, you would have had this issue if you were married.

You’re two different.

People just going to say that?

Right.

Like not everything can be blamed on the fact that you’re divorced.

Like there are definitely things that you just approach life differently and there’s no difference.

27:02

Like, you have to figure it out, and yes, it’s probably easier when you’re married because you still have the vested interest in being together, but you still need to figure it out and do what’s in your children’s best interests.

Yeah.

You know, something that comes up often for us and our clients because again, there’s typically one parent that is a social extracurricular activity director, right, and always has been.

27:26

And maybe the other parent agreed or didn’t agree.

For me, I was that person because I thought, you know, their personal development was important, but my spouse didn’t necessarily agree.

There’s financial obligations associated with that and I feel like even now on a much larger scale, you know, a lot of these kids have international trips or national trips that have to be accommodated for in their competitions.

27:53

And so typically the weight, the higher wage earning spouse can accommodate that better than the one receiving support.

So we come up on these issues where how the children will participate is somewhat agreed upon, but if the spouse receiving support enough money to travel from New Jersey to California to see the competition, they can’t participate.

28:18

So how do the courts look at those situations?

Because I think they’re just more and more now it it’s really.

Hard because these activities and these sports gone are the days of people just doing rec sports, right?

That doesn’t by the time, you know, my daughter’s 8 and I felt like by the time she was 7, like she had to choose a path or if not, the gap between an average rec player and these, you know, competitors gets larger and larger.

28:43

You can’t ever catch up, you know, And I think courts deal with it based on how much money is there, what the kids have been accustomed to.

And then and in fairness, both parents have a right to be there, right?

And how that’s going to get funded.

It really depends on how much money there is.

29:00

You know, I’ve seen cases where they’ve split in some fashion, the hotel, the airfare and the competition fees or the registration fees, whatever in in some kind of pro rata share based on incomes.

29:17

And then them higher earning spouse might have to kick in a little more money for the parent who is taking the child.

Because a lot of times when you’re gone on these trips, both parents don’t go necessarily the entire time, right?

There’s usually multiple children.

So someone has to stay home with the other children.

29:33

And you don’t necessarily, if you go to these competitions, you might only participate one or two days, yet you have to be there for sex.

And then it’s on top of that what, you know, comes along with that.

It’s the meals, it’s the transportation.

It’s not just, you know, you’re going to go watch three games and you’re going to sit in your hotel room the rest of the time.

29:51

You know, whether you’re ordering room service, whether you’re going out for food, whether you’re grocery shopping, all this costs money.

And, you know, no one wants to say no to their kids, especially if they’ve, let’s say, played a sport for years and years and years.

You’re getting divorced when your kids are let’s say teenagers, but it’s all based on the court is not going to necessarily just find money that doesn’t exist.

30:12

So then you have to strike that even if courts as no, I’m not going to make them pay for this.

But then you’re both like, but we want him to participate.

And then it’s like, OK, well, where is the money coming from?

And you often see a lot of credit card debt.

You often see people living way beyond their means.

And fortunately, some of these programs do have some financial assistance and coaches chip in and things like that.

30:32

But it’s a problem.

It’s a really big problem, you know, because a lot of times the cost of living in areas cannot be supported by two people working to keep one household together, let alone keep 2 households together operating in the same budgets.

That’s so true.

30:49

So when planning for the future, I’d like to go back to the beginning of our conversation where you talked about a parenting coordinator.

I believe that is a role of a parenting coordinator to kind of liaise and navigate beyond the original parenting plan.

31:05

Can you talk a little bit about that?

Yeah, so I.

I love acting in a parent coordinator role, so I’m a parenting coordinator comes into play after a parenting time plan is in place.

Like that is the key.

We need to start with something and parenting coordinators are given as much latitude as the couple allows.

31:24

And there is an order and a retainer agreement that provide for exactly what a parenting coordinator can and can’t do with any case.

And what’s great about a parenting coordinator is that in theory, they get to know the parties, they get to know the kids.

So you get to know, you know, who’s kind of pushing who’s buttons, who’s using what tactic, who’s not using what tactic in a way that a judge can’t get to know you on that kind of level.

31:46

And not that parenting coordinators keep score, but you kind of get a sense of, you know, who keeps winning, you know, and why is that happening?

And does that feel fair for the kid?

Then ultimately pounding coordinators are usually given latitude to make decisions that then are binding.

32:03

And the parents, if they disagree with that decision, there is a process where they can go to court and say, I disagree with this decision that the parenting coordinator made.

And here is why.

But it also gives you, as a parenting coordinator, some level of authority to try to keep people out of court and to manage maybe smaller disputes and things more in real time.

32:25

But I also like that being a parenting coordinator is that you’re looking at a document that was put in place and you’re trying to help people get through these impasses that they might have.

So a perfect example might be something about like a sports tournament where it says, you know, they’re going to share the cost of what a soccer tournament and, you know, they’re going to participate on this team.

32:44

But let’s say then there’s another team that comes up and let’s say your child is so great that they were asked to play for this team.

And this could open up doors for D1 scholarships and things like that.

And one parent says, yes, he can participate.

The other one says, no way, his grades are dropping.

Like this can’t happen.

And how can we kind of cut through that and figure out what’s not only best for the kid, but also what’s best for the family in accordance with what you previously agreed to?

33:10

So how long do you stay?

The parenting coordinator, so usually most.

Orders have an expiration of about a year or two.

Sometimes parenting coordinators are brought on for a shorter period of time.

But you typically want at least have an expiration with kind of the right for renewal because you don’t want to be necessarily living in the background of this family forever.

33:28

And you don’t necessarily, there’s sometimes I’ll go months without talking to a family.

And then there’s other times where like there’s, you know, feels like popcorn issues coming up here, there and everywhere.

So it really depends on the family.

And I also think too, that a parenting coordinator, you also want to provide some skills for communicating where, you know, someone might come out of the gate And just like it needs a lesson, it’s like it’s not what you say, it’s how you say it.

33:51

And you kind of say, OK, well, instead of saying this, what if you tried framing it in this way where your spouse might be more responsive rather than feeling like they’re being attacked?

And, you know, and sometimes it takes that third party to come in and try to say that’s not really what she’s saying here is what she is saying.

34:09

But she cannot communicate effectively with you so that you’re hearing the message because it’s getting all, you know, jumbled in the emotion.

So are you ordered?

By a judge or these parents hiring you at will both so.

You can agree to use a parenting coordinator or in cases of high conflict a judge does have authority to appoint a parenting coordinator as well.

34:33

So it just depends on the situation.

So, but it’s definitely.

In higher conflict cases, I’ve seen a lot of success with it and even in lower conflict cases, just be you don’t have to be at each other’s throats just not to be able to, you know, agree on something, right?

And sometimes it’s just isolated issues that they need help with.

34:50

Sometimes it’s you know, the whole thing.

Well, it’s nice when you.

Have one party who might be a little narcissistic or aggressive on your the meek, mild introverted type that doesn’t want to speak up, but you really do have a great mind and you want to say this stuff, but you’re afraid to right to initiate that service and it gives transparency.

35:11

To, you know, you’re having an open conversation with both parties, you know, and, you know, luckily with Zoom, it’s even easier to do where, you know, I can get an e-mail from one party saying like this has come up.

I forward that e-mail to the other parties, say, like, what’s your opinion?

You know, what’s your take on it?

35:27

And then let’s schedule a call to kind of, you know, shake it out and figure out how this is going to be resolved.

And yes, there’s sometimes things where I could say, OK, here’s like a very good solution, like, what do you think about this?

And it’s easy 123.

And then there’s other times where I have to write, you know, a lengthy letter or e-mail saying, OK, heard what you said, I heard what you said.

35:47

You know, here is, you know, kind of like your options and really lay it out.

It really depends on, you know, what the issue at play is.

Yeah.

Very good.

A lot of information today for everyone.

So I’m sure if I had to summarize this, if you’re listening, parent coordinators are a great option.

36:05

If not appointed, which you would automatically get.

You know, it might be an option for you if you feel more comfortable having a third party, at least throughout the first year to help you transition.

But to the other take away from me is make sure you have this agreement in force.

I mean, you need something to fall back on.

36:20

You could be hunky Dory today.

And you guys are in divorce bliss and you’re getting along great and you’re going to do what’s best for the kids, which we hope you are, but have an agreement to fall back on just so you don’t end up in back in the courtroom.

And you know, if you have any of the questions for us, let us know.

36:36

But Nicole, this has been a great conversation.

Oh, thank you and thank.

You so much again for having me.

I really truly enjoyed talking to you today likewise.

Nicole, how can our listeners and viewers learn more about you and your work?

Sure.

So.

My law firm is Lindaburry, McCormick, Estabrook and Cooper.

36:54

Our website islindaburry.com.

And if you’d like to reach out to me directly, my e-mail address is N Kobus and it’s KOB as in boy IS as in Sam at Lindaburry.

Linda bury.com.

37:11

Excellent.

So this concludes this episode.

Parenting plans and finances, building a blueprint for Co parenting success.

Thank you again, Nicole for a great conversation.

Thank you so much.

Thanks for joining.

Us on another episode of WeChat Divorce.

37:27

We hope this episode was informative and supportive on your divorce journey.