179. AI vs. Divorce Strategy: Why a QDRO Answer Is Not a Settlement Plan

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Welcome to WeChat Divorce,
hosted by Karen Chellew, Legal

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Liaison and Catherine Shanahan,
CDFA.

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Each episode we sit down with
divorce professionals and

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industry experts to provide
insights and frank discussions

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about real people, real
situations, and real divorce to

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help you achieve your best life
post divorce.

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This episode of WeChat Divorce
is brought to you by My Divorce

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Solution, offering divorce
financial planning so clients

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can secure the divorce
settlement they deserve.

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Visit azure-emu-499854.hostingersite.com/ to
request access.

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Are you going to AI with your
divorce strategy questions?

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Look, before you take a chat
bot’s word on Quadros and

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retirement splits, let’s let’s
talk about what those answers

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miss and how that can cost you.
Welcome back to WeChat Divorce,

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where we demystify the financial
side of divorce and help you

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replace fear with facts.
I’m Karen Shalu, legal Liaison

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and Co founder of My Divorce
Solution, here to help you

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navigate the legal process with
confidence.

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And I’m Catherine Shanahan,
Certified Divorce Financial

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Analyst and your partner in
creating financial clarity at

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every stage in divorce.
Together, we can help you move

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from confusion to control,
because financial clarity is

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power.
So in today’s Divorce Explored,

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we’re going to break down AI
versus real divorce strategy.

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Why a Quadro answer is not a
settlement plan inspired by the

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streets coverage on Gray Divorce
and Quadros, You’ll see the link

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in our show notes.
Look, divorce rates for adults

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over 50 more than doubled
between 1990 and 2010, and 36%

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of US divorces now involve
individuals 50 and older.

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So if you read the Streets
article and again there, it’s in

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our show notes, it talks about
chat talking about what is a

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Quadro.
And then they wanted to know how

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accurate the response was.
And the financial advisor then

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went back in to say whether the
chat response was accurate or

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not.
That’s fair.

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And a lot of people, Catherine,
how many of our clients are

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using chat and coming to us as
if it’s real divorce strategy.

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It’s incredible.
And I think that’s why this

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episode is so important.
But back to the Quadro when the

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retirement plans.
So AI can define what a Quadro

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is, but it will not vet your
specific plan rules.

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It’s called a summary plan
description and it explains and

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we we say it governs any
specific retirement plans and

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lays out survivor benefits,
loans or timing risk.

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People can hear a certain
definition and they feel, oh,

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this is all I need to know.
This was easy, I don’t need

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professionals.
And then they sign the orders

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that don’t protect payments, if
they stop, if a spouse dies, if

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something goes wrong, or if the
Quadro never gets done in the

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first place.
Yeah, and that’s a mess.

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You can’t even retire if your
Quadro is not done.

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That was it.
Remember that case that came to

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us?
Gosh, probably nine years ago?

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Yeah.
They want to calculate because

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the spouse was trying to retire
and they never processed the

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Quadro.
Right.

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Yeah, what a mess.
It’s it is a mess.

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And a lot of people will even
use the template that the

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planets, the plan administration
will provide to draft their

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Quadro, which is not protecting
our clients.

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It’s just something that people
fill in the blanks and they

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don’t understand the impact of
that.

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Yeah, you know.
Let’s back up a minute because

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if you’re listening you, you
might be saying what is a

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Quadro?
Yeah.

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So a Quadro would they with
which how they write it out is

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QDRO, which stands for a
Qualified Domestic Relations

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Order and then a lot of military
is divided by a drow.

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You drop the queue and it’s
domestic relations order.

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And what that is a Quadro is
what you use to transfer

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retirement assets.
Any ERISA run plan, not an IRA,

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not a Sep IRA, not a Roth IRA,
they do not need a Quadro, but

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like a four O 1K or a pension or
a four O 3B that needs a Quadro.

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That’s an ERISA run plan.
And when you’re doing this

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Quadra, to your point, let me
just further define that when

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you do a transfer via the
Quadra, there’s no tax

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consequences for you receiving
your marital share.

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But also what’s important in
that Quadra and what AI cannot

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do for you is specify, you know,
what happens if your spouse

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passes away before the Quadra is
completed.

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You, you have to lay that out in
your Quadro, right?

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Or, and sometimes you have to
negotiate that because people

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leave that out.
And another thing AI is not

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going to do for you is what if
you want to do a one time

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withdrawal incident to divorce?
You know, there’s, if you’re not

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59 1/2 yet, there’s a penalty to
take out your retirement money.

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But incident to divorce, you
could take a one time withdrawal

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without the excise tax.
It’s still taxable income for

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you, but you avoid the excise
tax if you do it within that

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transaction.
So AI is not going to tell you

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that.
AI does not replace a

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professional guiding you through
this process.

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That’s so true when it’s not
going to tell you if loans are

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taken out, how you take the
money, you know, if, if it’s in

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pay status or not.
You know, what’s their single

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life annuity, think things like
that.

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There’s so many details.
It’s not a simple document.

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It’s not just something a fill
in the blank kind of document.

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And I, I think a lot of people
don’t know that.

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And you know, when they go to
negotiate a settlement or if

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they go to court because a judge
is going to split everything

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down the middle.
And you don’t need to do that

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because that’s the most
expensive way to divide your

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retirement assets and it creates
a lot of ambiguity and vagueness

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in in your final divorce order.
So Karen, I didn’t read the

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article and I know it’s going to
be in our show notes, but was it

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saying that AI would complete
the Quadro for you and process

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it for you?
No, the article was just to

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demonstrate how accurate AI can
be.

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And AI did a good job of
explaining what is a Quadro and

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why you need it.
It, it did a good job of that.

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But it the, the point is when
you take that information and

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see it as a complete strategy,
that’s, you know, that’s where

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it becomes a problem.
Yeah, yeah, because that

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strategy is again missing out on
some of the information we just

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talked about.
Do you need a one time

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withdrawal?
Where is the money being

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transferred to?
You know what happens if your

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spouse passes away before the
Quadro is completed?

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Yeah.
And Catherine, how often do we

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see where this makes me?
Insane.

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Wow, I’m already insane.
But a little bit more when

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people are dividing some if
they’re heavy and this can

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happen in grade divorces a lot
where their retirement accounts

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are heavy and they don’t have a
lot of liquid assets for

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whatever reason.
And so the the negotiation is,

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OK, well, you’ll take half of
this retirement plan.

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And then I often hear you say,
well, that’s not liquid.

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So what do we do to balance that
out because there would be tax

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impacts.
So can you talk about that a

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little bit?
Because I don’t think people

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realize that.
And the other thing that we see

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is when attorneys say, well, if
you can just take a withdrawal

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from your retirement plan to pay
attorneys fees, that’s so

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common.
Yeah, yeah.

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So, you know, a lot of the two
biggest assets that people have

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is their real estate, their
marital home or their retirement

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account.
Right.

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So, you know, typically the stay
at home parent wants to keep the

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marital home because they don’t
want to disrupt their kids or

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they just don’t want to move.
So what they do is they say, OK,

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you keep the retirement account
or vice versa.

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You know, it could go both ways.
You know, another area is, you

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know, balancing out assets.
Let’s just use the retirement.

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I rather have cash.
You can have the retirement.

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Well, they’re not.
That’s not comparing apples to

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apples.
There’s a different tax

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consequence to these assets.
So if you’re saying, yes, you

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could buy me out of the marital
home with your retirement

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account and then I’ll take that
money and go buy my own new

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home, you’re getting at a
minimum 20% less because you

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have to pay taxes on that money
to go buy your marital.

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Put your down payment on your a
new marital home for yourself or

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a new home for yourself.
So you just have to be aware of

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what the tax consequence is to
taking the retirement accounts

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into your column or onto your
side of the spreadsheet because

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you don’t want to be shocked
that you know you’re paying.

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You’re getting less than because
you forgot to consider the taxes

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involved.
And again, with what drives me

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insane with these Quadros is,
and I’m insane as well also

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because the divorce process
tends to do that to all of us,

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right?
Is that let’s just say it’s you

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and I, Karen and I have two,
four O 1 KS.

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You know, one from a prior
employer that I never rolled

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over a new one from my current
employer.

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And you’re my spouse and you
have, you have two as well.

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What they do I see in so many
agreements, we’re going to

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Quadro all four of those.
So you’re paying, let’s say,

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$4000 to Quadro all four.
Well, why don’t we reconcile

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what the balances are and do it
with ease?

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So maybe 1 is staying in my name
only, two are staying in your

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name only.
And we’re only balancing my one

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to make us even, to make us
whole.

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So AI is not doing that for you.
You need somebody to look at it

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and say, what’s the best way for
us to distribute this retirement

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money?
Save us a lot of money, stress,

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time and energy by just
reconciling the values between

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all of them and leaving
whichever you can in the party’s

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name, who it is registered to.
So you avoid the Quadro and then

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you still can have an equitable
distribution.

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So true.
And look, I’m a fan of AI.

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All professionals I believe are
using AI now.

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But I believe what our clients
don’t understand, it’s the

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experience and expertise of the
prompts that you put into AI to

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get back what is good
information.

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And a lot of people use AI as a
Google search and then they get

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back essentially misinformation.
I’ve gotten tons of

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misinformation back and you know
it right away.

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If you understand the prompt you
put in and you, you have the

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experience and the expertise.
But I, I believe, you know,

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that’s a very misunderstood
concept that people, you know,

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will come back and say, well, I
talked to chat and or Claude or

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whoever, and this is what it
reported back.

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And when you, and then you’re
able to tell the client, well,

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you missed these variations in
your prompt and that’s why your

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information is incorrect.
And then relative to Quadros, a

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lot of people will just see the
retirement plans.

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Attorneys do the same thing or
we’ve seen it a lot where they

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just split the retirement and
set it aside and then you have

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the rest of the marital estate
to divide or negotiate.

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That can be a problem,
especially at in the grade

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divorce when most of not most of
them, but a high percentage are

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heavy in the retirement plans.
It it makes for an inefficient

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and a less effective way to
divide your marital estate or

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Community property.
So here at MD’s we verify first

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we verify what you have
statements, your plan summaries,

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your plan summaries for
retirement plans are what

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governs again the division of
those plans incident to divorce

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service dates, loans, vesting
beneficiaries.

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So assumptions, whether it’s
unclear assumptions or clear

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assumptions don’t become
expensive surprises.

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We coordinate with the plan
administrator if needed, or help

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you or your attorney coordinate
with the plan administrator so

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that you have very clear
understanding of the impact of

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the division of those retirement
accounts.

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Yeah.
And we, you know, we go on to

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further model scenarios for you
that you can actually negotiate

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from or have an intelligent
conversation with your other

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professionals with.
And a lot of that is knowing

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what to ask and what to
consider.

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So with pensions, you know, are
you considering survivor benefit

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elections if pensions already in
payout status, can it even be

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divided?
You know, you have to confirm

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that there are a lot of things
with the pension that you need

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to consider giving up because
you know, a lot of pensions are

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good, so why give them up a
house versus retirement?

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You know, we talked a little bit
about it earlier.

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That’s not an apple to Apple
comparison.

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There’s tax impact to those
decisions and liquidity

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problems, you know, for both of
them actually.

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And taxes, you know, when you’re
rolling thing, when you’re

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rolling an asset over, you’re
avoiding a tax consequence.

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But what if you need the cash
now?

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Now you can’t just roll it over
and then take the cash to avoid

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taxes.
You’re going to have to pay for

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the taxes at some point.
So you need to know what you

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need to consider what the impact
of all of this is.

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And again, AI is not doing that
for you.

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So be careful when you’re going
through this process and make

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sure that you are financially
clear on the scenarios that are

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available to you.
For sure.

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And look, we’re here to help
you.

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We believe every family client,
person divorcing should have an

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MD’s portrait.
But for sure, please ask your

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divorce professionals when
you’re dividing retirement

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00:14:37,480 –> 00:14:40,440
accounts.
Have we verified the plan rules,

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the loans or survivor options?
Do we have a valuation date?

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00:14:44,680 –> 00:14:47,760
Do we know the gains, losses,
language and the processing

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timelines to be very clear about
that?

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It’s very important information
to you.

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And has the draft order been pre
reviewed by the plan

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administrator?
That’s huge.

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I’m a Quadro administrator.
We don’t do them here anymore

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00:15:02,480 –> 00:15:05,720
because you really need to hire
someone that just does them all

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the time.
But those draft orders being pre

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reviewed before they go to the
court is critical.

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I totally agree.
We’ve seen so many mistakes, so

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book your MD’s financial
portrait readiness check and

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00:15:19,920 –> 00:15:23,480
that together verify and
scenario plan so your legal team

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00:15:23,480 –> 00:15:26,120
negotiates from the data and the
facts.

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So let’s recap.
Let’s recap what we said today.

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AI is.
I know it’s a great tool and it

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can explain to you what a Quadro
is and explain to you many other

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things.
But it can’t confirm your plan

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00:15:40,920 –> 00:15:43,600
rules.
It cannot optimize taxes and

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00:15:43,600 –> 00:15:46,840
cash flow for you, or align
retirement division with the

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rest of your overall settlement.
So the key take away is to use

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AI for definitions and then use
a verified financial portrait

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00:15:55,800 –> 00:16:00,840
from MD’s for your decisions.
At My Divorce Solution, we help

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00:16:00,840 –> 00:16:05,440
you replace fear with facts.
If you’re feeling stuck,

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00:16:05,520 –> 00:16:08,360
uncertain, or just ready to
understand your financial

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00:16:08,360 –> 00:16:11,760
reality, visit
azure-emu-499854.hostingersite.com/ to learn

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00:16:11,760 –> 00:16:15,080
how the MD’s financial portrait
can help you make informed,

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00:16:15,360 –> 00:16:19,400
confident decisions.
You’ll find helpful resources

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00:16:19,400 –> 00:16:21,760
LinkedIn the show notes,
including access to our Free

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00:16:21,840 –> 00:16:25,360
MD’s community, where you can
connect with experts and others

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00:16:25,360 –> 00:16:30,120
walking the same path as you.
And if today’s episode resonated

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00:16:30,120 –> 00:16:34,040
with you, please like, follow
and share it with someone who

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00:16:34,040 –> 00:16:37,640
needs to hear it.
And until next time, take a

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00:16:37,640 –> 00:16:40,440
breath, move at your own pace,
protect your peace, and let

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00:16:40,440 –> 00:16:45,800
knowledge be your power.
Thanks for joining us on another

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episode of We Chat Divorce.
We hope this episode was

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00:16:49,720 –> 00:16:52,640
informative and supportive on
your divorce journey.

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00:16:53,320 –> 00:16:56,240
If you’re looking for more
support for navigating divorce

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00:16:56,240 –> 00:16:58,720
with confidence and clarity,
head over to

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00:16:59,040 –> 00:17:03,560
azure-emu-499854.hostingersite.com/ for more
podcast episodes, divorce

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00:17:03,560 –> 00:17:06,400
events, and resources for your
divorce.

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00:17:06,640 –> 00:17:09,000
We’ll see you back here for our
next episode.