178. Staying Calm, Clear, and Confident in a High-Conflict Divorce with Karen McMahon

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Welcome to WeChat Divorce,
hosted by Karen Chellew, Legal

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Liaison and Catherine Shanahan,
CDFA.

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Each episode we sit down with
divorce professionals and

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industry experts to provide
insights and frank discussions

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about real people, real
situations, and real divorce to

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help you achieve your best life
post divorce.

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This episode of WeChat Divorce
is brought to you by My Divorce

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Solution, offering divorce
financial planning so clients

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can secure the divorce
settlement they deserve.

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Visit azure-emu-499854.hostingersite.com/ to
request access.

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Welcome back to WeChat Divorce,
brought to you by My Divorce

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Solution.
I’m Karen Shalu, your legal

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liaison here to help you
navigate the legal side of

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divorce with clarity and
confidence.

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And I’m Catherine Shanahan,
Certified Divorce Financial

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Analyst and your partner in
building long term financial

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stability throughout your
divorce journey and beyond.

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At MD’s, we believe preparation
is power and clarity is your

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greatest asset.
Today we had the chance to speak

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with someone who deeply
understands one of the most

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emotionally draining dynamics in
divorce, those high conflict

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personalities.
And I think for most people,

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just by the fact that you’re
going through a divorce, it’s

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high conflict by default.
But there are some who deal, and

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I guess most who deal with very
high conflict personalities.

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Yeah, it was good catching up
with Karen today, Karen McMahon.

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It was a great podcast and
really resonated with me because

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I like analogies, right?
And we talked about staying on

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your side of the street, which I
think I can continue to talk

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about all not talk about think
about all day long.

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You know, it’s, it’s just such a
good way to approach your day

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and your decision making because
it can give you a piece of calm

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knowing that you’re only trying
to regulate yourself and not

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everything around you, which is
what you try to do when you’re

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going through the divorce
process. 100% And I think, you

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know, I’ve never used that term.
I don’t even think I’ve heard

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that term before.
So it’s interesting to talk

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about, but I often find myself
speaking with our clients about

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learning a new language.
And it’s kind of the same thing,

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meaning the language of, you
know, what do I want?

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How do things work for me?
Because during the relationship

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with a spouse, you have that
language going on specifically

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about finances.
And so when you’re going through

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divorce, you do have to learn a
new language about how you talk

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about things and the mindset and
the, you know, Catherine, you

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talk about it, how you view
money, how you talk about money.

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A lot of that has to be
redirected in order for you to

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have a successful financially
post divorce life.

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So I think that it all comes.
Together.

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Yeah.
You know, and I don’t know if

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you, if you know me at all, you
know that I just got a divorce.

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I had a short term marriage the
second time around, 4 years and

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got divorced.
But Karen, even going through

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that, you know, because we
didn’t have any assets together,

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you had to help me stay on my
side of the street because I was

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so logistically thinking,
listen, this is a four year

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marriage.
We have nothing together.

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We’re just going to sign this
agreement.

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Everybody knows what I do for a
living.

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So there was no question there.
But I kept trying to get him to

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see just sign this.
And you kept saying to me,

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Catherine, just do what you can
do you doing right?

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So it’s so hard to do.
What ifs, right?

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There’s so many what ifs, and
you feel so vulnerable to all

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the what ifs.
And believe us both, Catherine

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and I know there’s a ton of what
ifs, but you can’t control them.

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And the best place to stay is on
your side of the street every

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day, all day.
I love that.

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Yeah.
It’s such an important

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conversation we had with Karen
today, packed with practical

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strategies.
Plus, Karen is offering our

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listeners a free gift, her fresh
start guide, how to break free

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from a toxic spouse.
So stay tuned.

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We’ll tell you how to grab your
copy later in the show.

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All right, let’s get into it.
Here’s our conversation with

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Karen McMahon.
Karen, welcome to WeChat

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Divorce.
I am so excited to be here.

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Thanks for the invitation.
Of course, and we’re so excited

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too to have you on the show.
But first, I want to introduce

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you to our listeners.
Karen McMahon is a high conflict

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divorce strategist, certified
divorce coach and the founder of

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Journey Beyond Divorce.
She’s also the host of the

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Journey Beyond Divorce podcast
and co-author of Stepping Out of

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Chaos, Turning Pain to
Possibility.

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Karen began this work in 2010
after walking through her own

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painful divorce and discovering
that it became a

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transformational turning point
in her life.

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She now leads a national team of
coaches helping men and women

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around the world move through
divorce with emotional clarity

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and personal growth.
Karen, again, we’re so glad

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you’re here.
And to start, can you tell us a

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little bit about your own
journey and what inspired you to

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start Journey Beyond Divorce?
Sure, thank you.

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The crib notes version is I was,
I was married, Blade.

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I was 34.
We had two beautiful children.

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And by the time my daughter hit
her second birthday, our

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marriage had already gone
severely off the rails.

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And I was very confused.
I didn’t understand.

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I’m intelligent, I’m heart
centered.

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Why can’t I make this work?
And this man was my Prince

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Charming.
What happened?

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And there was my ex-husband is
he has a lot of narcissistic

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trades.
He had a tremendous amount of

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anger management.
I do believe he was on the butt

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is on the bipolar spectrum.
And so it was just a he was

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consistently inconsistent was
one of my sayings.

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So you just never knew what you
were going to get.

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And and I lost myself.
I actually had a physical

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altercation with him that I
began on my daughter’s second

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birthday.
And the following Monday I

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called a therapist and started
therapy because I knew I had

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become the rageaholic that I was
raised by my mom.

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My dad was an alcoholic, my mom
was a rageaholic.

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And when I began to connect the
dots in therapy, I realized I

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had brought a lot of unhealthy
tendencies to the table.

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I I was a people pleaser.
I was definitely codependent.

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I was uncomfortable with
conflict because of how I grew

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up and my my relationship was
filled with all of those things.

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When I finally decided to
divorce, I thought, OK, it’ll be

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over soon.
And then 3 1/2 years later,

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after the courts had us hire a
psychological forensic, an

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attorney for the children, CPS
was called on us three times.

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I had to call the cops.
I had to get an order of

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protection.
I was in sales.

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I was a full time fully
commissioned salesperson.

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I lost 3/4 of my business
because I was an emotional mess.

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I, I was, I was, I was nothing
that I tell my clients now to

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be.
I was really a hot mess and

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blaming and accusing.
And yet through the process, I

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learned about a 12 step program.
I learned to keep my side of the

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street clean.
And that I would really say was

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the beginning of a pivot.
I, I don’t know that there was

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much coaching.
This was 2002 to 2006.

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And so learning the 12 step
concept of keep your side of the

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street clean was huge for me.
And how important is it?

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And one step, one day at a time,
one minute at a time.

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And and then I and I remember
calling my best friend and

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saying I am so pleased with the
human being I am and that if I

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had to do it all over again, my
answer would be yes on a dime.

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Which is a pretty big statement
because it was a big hell.

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I lived in the attic.
It was 100 plus degrees for

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three of the 3 1/2 years.
My kids were four and six when I

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told them.
It was heartbreaking.

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It was scary.
He told me I was going to lose

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the kids, and I believed him.
I was so afraid that he was

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going to have these kids and
like just crush them.

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And yet, Fast forward all of
these years and even just right

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after my divorce, I knew this
was for me.

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This was not as hard as it was.
It was absolutely for me.

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And I I was selling commercial
printing, which was a dying

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industry.
And I thought, and I’m a

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Christian and I sat on the couch
and cried for months and said,

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God, you did not bring me
through this journey to sell ink

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on paper.
What do you have for me?

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How how am I supposed to take
the jewels of what I’ve learned

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and do something better?
And I became a coach and I knew

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right away, right?
They’re like, what’s your niche?

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And I’m like, Oh my God, I was a
child of divorce.

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I just went through a hellacious
divorce.

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I think I’m supposed to be a
divorce coach.

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I hit the ground going into the
coaching in 2010.

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I had my first client 10, like
25% into the program.

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And I just built from there.
And I think that for so many

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coaches who have a hard time
launching a business I had, I

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had no other money.
It was like failure wasn’t an

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option.
I think that was like one of my

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mantras going into the divorce
coach chain.

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And and I was so passionate
about it.

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And I think that people really
resonate with someone who’s

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walked the walk because you
don’t just have that book

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theory, that theoretical
understanding.

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You have a lived, you have a
sense of it on such a cellular

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basis.
And for me, a lot of clients

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have hired me because they’re
like, I have no hope.

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But you seem so hopeful, Karen.
I’m actually going to hire you

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and hold on to your hope until I
can find my own.

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I like that, you know, it’s so
true because we all want to be

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able to relate to someone,
right?

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It’s not all the degrees, a lot
of times hanging on the wall.

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It’s more more about can you
relate to what I’m going

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through?
Because I don’t think people

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relate to me.
They talk over me.

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They took talk under me.
They they want to tell me that

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my life is just going to be okay
because they don’t really get

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it.
They only get what their

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profession is.
So when you actually have walked

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the walk, like you say, you’re
able to listen differently and

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speak differently to people
because you get where they are

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in that moment.
And you know, we see that on the

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financial side all day long.
We don’t judge anyone because

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they never were in charge of
their finances and, you know,

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they never looked at a statement
or their tax return.

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There’s no judgement here.
It’s like, let us walk you

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through it differently than
you’re used to so that you have

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an understanding and can make
good decisions for yourself.

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Exactly, Yeah.
Wow thank you for sharing that I

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am a little teary.
Just wow your story.

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I know I don’t get teary.
That our Karen doesn’t get teary

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very often.
So now me, I could baw my eyes

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out right now.
You know there’s.

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One of the things that now I’ve
been doing this for over 15

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years and so I’ve it’s, I’ve
spoken to thousands and one of

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the things I realized is I
really struggled with at least

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one piece of anyone who comes to
me.

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And I’m like, why, why did I
have to have all of that?

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And he’s like, well, maybe I had
to have all of that so that I

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could show up and go, I get it.
I hear you, I feel you.

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I, I understand you in a way
that so many others can’t.

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And So what was hell has turned
into just an incredible blessing

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and and not for me as much As
for the reach and the support

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and the healing that I can help
foster in the clients that we

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work with.
Well, there’s so many pieces of

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your story that are so similar
to mine that I really can make

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that connection because I was
deeply rooted in the church and

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my children were five and seven,
and I felt like everything that

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was happening was isolating me
from my family and everything I

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knew.
And so I really appreciate you

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00:13:06,200 –> 00:13:09,400
sharing that because it really
spoke to me.

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I do have one question, though,
before we get into our further

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discussion today.
You talk about keeping my side

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of the street clean.
What does that mean?

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Well, and it actually plugs very
much into what we’re talking

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about South.
Most of us when our marriage

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starts going a little bit off
the rails, we figure what we

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00:13:33,680 –> 00:13:36,240
need to do is help our spouse
change.

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And and that’s the beginning of
the mistake because, you know,

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we as human beings, we only have
control of ourselves when we

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bring little people into the
world, we actually think we have

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control of them for much longer
than we do.

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Probably 1516.
And this is the edge at which

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like you have to start really
losing control.

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And so here we are marrying
another adult and especially in

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00:14:05,160 –> 00:14:07,400
high conflict divorce.
We should all over them.

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00:14:07,400 –> 00:14:09,880
You should, you should, you
should, you should, you should.

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And I did a lot of that.
And when I went into therapy and

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I went into the program, the
question was not what’s he doing

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wrong?
Leave him alone.

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He’s on that side of the street.
He’s going to change or he’s not

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00:14:23,280 –> 00:14:24,720
going to change.
He’s going to make his

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00:14:24,720 –> 00:14:26,920
decisions.
That didn’t work.

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00:14:27,360 –> 00:14:31,040
Barking at him, nagging him,
begging him, pleading with that

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00:14:31,040 –> 00:14:33,960
didn’t work.
So what if you just stay on your

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00:14:33,960 –> 00:14:36,040
side of the street?
What if everything is about what

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00:14:36,040 –> 00:14:38,720
did I bring to the table?
What are my fears?

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00:14:38,720 –> 00:14:40,880
What are my insecurities?
How am I reacting?

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00:14:40,880 –> 00:14:43,480
How am I showing up in a way I
don’t want to?

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00:14:43,480 –> 00:14:46,800
How’s my thought behavior as
well as my action behavior

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00:14:47,080 –> 00:14:50,120
serving me?
And when I started doing that, I

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00:14:50,120 –> 00:14:55,160
began to realize my own
insecurities, my own judgement,

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00:14:55,320 –> 00:14:59,800
my unforgiveness, my my
expectations that were never

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00:14:59,800 –> 00:15:02,800
verbalized or agreed to by the
other person.

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00:15:02,840 –> 00:15:07,480
My and, and, and when you keep
your side of the street clean,

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when you focus on what you have
control over, which is you in a

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00:15:12,760 –> 00:15:18,520
process that is so overwhelming
and uncertain and I want to say

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00:15:18,520 –> 00:15:21,800
out of your control, people
always like how am I supposed to

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00:15:21,800 –> 00:15:25,640
feel empowered?
We can feel so incredibly

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00:15:25,640 –> 00:15:29,880
empowered in a process that we
don’t have a lot of control over

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00:15:30,360 –> 00:15:34,960
when we’re controlling ourselves
because and especially I’ll say

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00:15:34,960 –> 00:15:37,960
with the high conflict, it’s
often the spouse of the high

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00:15:37,960 –> 00:15:40,640
conflict person that looks like
the high conflict person.

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00:15:41,000 –> 00:15:43,880
We’re frothing at the mouth,
we’re raging, we’re hysterical,

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00:15:43,880 –> 00:15:46,720
we’re screaming, we’re
frustrated, we’re melting, we’re

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00:15:47,040 –> 00:15:50,000
we’re shutting down.
We’re doing all of these things.

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00:15:50,360 –> 00:15:55,080
And when we work on that and to
the point of our topic today and

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we show up calm, clear and
confident, we we feel empowered

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00:16:02,320 –> 00:16:05,560
because we’re controlling the
most important thing, which is

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00:16:05,840 –> 00:16:09,520
how am I going to show up?
And like how do I line with my

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00:16:09,520 –> 00:16:12,560
values?
Yeah, and that really plays

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00:16:12,560 –> 00:16:15,320
through in the financial side as
well because you know, a lot of

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00:16:15,320 –> 00:16:18,120
times in these high conflict
divorces, they’re well, my

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00:16:18,120 –> 00:16:20,560
spouse won’t agree to that.
My spouse isn’t going to do

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00:16:20,560 –> 00:16:22,160
that.
My spouse wants that asset.

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No, my spouse won’t give me that
asset.

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And so we try to reframe it.
You know, we don’t tell them

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00:16:26,320 –> 00:16:28,480
what they get, but you know,
what are your thoughts?

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00:16:28,480 –> 00:16:30,680
What what do you think of the
impact of this decision?

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00:16:30,680 –> 00:16:32,960
Where would you like to be?
What asset would you like to

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00:16:32,960 –> 00:16:34,600
keep and what’s the value to
that asset?

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00:16:34,600 –> 00:16:37,880
And all of a sudden you do see
there you a little light coming

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00:16:37,880 –> 00:16:40,880
on in their heads, like, oh, let
me just control my own thoughts

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00:16:40,880 –> 00:16:42,720
here.
And then, yes, you’re going to

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00:16:42,720 –> 00:16:44,240
compromise.
I hate to tell you this.

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00:16:44,240 –> 00:16:46,360
If you’re listening to this
podcast, you are going to

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00:16:46,360 –> 00:16:48,200
compromise somewhere down the
line.

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00:16:48,200 –> 00:16:49,480
You don’t get everything that
you want.

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00:16:49,480 –> 00:16:52,360
It just doesn’t work that way.
But if you’re clear on what

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00:16:52,360 –> 00:16:55,720
options are available to you
based on you and your knowledge

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00:16:55,720 –> 00:16:57,720
and what you know, you don’t
have to worry about the other

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00:16:57,720 –> 00:16:59,880
side of the street.
As you’re saying, you know,

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00:16:59,880 –> 00:17:01,960
that’s not your job to worry
about the other side of the

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00:17:01,960 –> 00:17:04,359
street.
I so I love this analogy because

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00:17:04,440 –> 00:17:08,200
of course I love being able to
relate to something, so I can

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00:17:08,200 –> 00:17:10,599
relate to staying on my side of
the street.

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00:17:11,359 –> 00:17:13,800
And you know what’s interesting
about what you said?

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00:17:13,800 –> 00:17:17,280
I have this little mini course I
put together because of exactly

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00:17:17,280 –> 00:17:19,520
what you just said.
I’ll get on the phone with

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00:17:19,520 –> 00:17:22,599
someone and start coaching them
and they’ll start saying, well,

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00:17:22,599 –> 00:17:25,440
my step spouse thinks, well, my
spouse says, well, my spouse

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00:17:25,440 –> 00:17:28,319
believes and I’ll go, excuse me,
let’s pause the call.

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00:17:28,720 –> 00:17:30,360
Could you ask him or her to
leave the room?

301
00:17:30,360 –> 00:17:32,160
Because I’m actually just
coaching you.

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00:17:32,680 –> 00:17:36,640
And my course is reclaim your
mind, evict your spouse from

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00:17:36,640 –> 00:17:40,960
your mental space.
Because so many people come and

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00:17:40,960 –> 00:17:46,760
they’re so used to the narrative
that their husband or wife has

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00:17:46,760 –> 00:17:52,200
told them that they’re fighting
against themselves even in their

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00:17:52,200 –> 00:17:54,520
own head.
And, and when we as

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00:17:54,520 –> 00:17:58,680
professionals can say, you know,
let’s quiet that voice and let’s

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00:17:58,680 –> 00:18:02,960
actually tune into what you
want, what you think, what you

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00:18:02,960 –> 00:18:08,480
feel, what you believe, all of a
sudden they get centered and

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00:18:08,480 –> 00:18:10,840
they start feeling aligned with
themselves.

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00:18:10,840 –> 00:18:13,440
And that’s the beginning of
feeling empowered.

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00:18:13,440 –> 00:18:15,920
It’s like, it’s like inviting
people to come home.

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00:18:15,920 –> 00:18:19,320
Yeah.
And you know, it goes really

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00:18:19,440 –> 00:18:24,040
sorry, Karen, but it really goes
further than just the divorce

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00:18:24,040 –> 00:18:25,560
process.
And if you’re listening, I want

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00:18:25,560 –> 00:18:28,840
you to understand this because a
lot of people say, you know,

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00:18:28,840 –> 00:18:31,200
your divorce is over.
Yay, let’s have a divorce party

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00:18:31,200 –> 00:18:34,080
and you’re so excited, but it’s
but everyone goes home after

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00:18:34,080 –> 00:18:35,960
that and you are sitting at home
by yourself.

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00:18:35,960 –> 00:18:38,720
And so if you I’m just going to
speak financially.

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00:18:38,960 –> 00:18:41,680
So financially speaking, even if
you knew your options and you

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00:18:41,680 –> 00:18:44,640
walked away with what was the
best scenario for the family or

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00:18:44,640 –> 00:18:48,720
what have you, you still have to
have the confidence to not say,

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00:18:48,920 –> 00:18:50,520
oh, what would my spouse do
right now?

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00:18:50,520 –> 00:18:53,640
I remember for me and my spouse
and I were both financial

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00:18:53,640 –> 00:18:54,960
people, but I handled
everything.

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00:18:55,200 –> 00:18:57,960
But it was still post divorce.
It was still scary like, Oh my

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00:18:57,960 –> 00:19:00,160
God, I’m going to buy a car
without talking to my spouse

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00:19:00,160 –> 00:19:01,920
about it.
You know, I had a 20 year

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00:19:01,920 –> 00:19:04,640
relation, 23 year relationship.
Now all of a sudden I’m making

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00:19:04,640 –> 00:19:08,080
this decision by myself.
Oh my gosh, I have to go think

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00:19:08,080 –> 00:19:10,480
about buying a place, buying a
home by myself.

333
00:19:10,480 –> 00:19:12,440
And I have nobody to bounce that
off of.

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00:19:12,680 –> 00:19:15,600
So if they do that work with
you, you’re going to have more

335
00:19:15,600 –> 00:19:18,800
confidence, even post divorce,
feeling clear about what

336
00:19:18,800 –> 00:19:20,840
decisions you have to make for
yourself.

337
00:19:21,080 –> 00:19:23,600
And the answer is not always get
into another relationship.

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00:19:23,600 –> 00:19:28,960
Right or expecting that your
attorney is going to take care

339
00:19:28,960 –> 00:19:34,240
of matters so that in place of
you and something that you know,

340
00:19:34,240 –> 00:19:37,720
our topic today is staying calm,
clear and confident in a high

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00:19:37,720 –> 00:19:41,240
conflict divorce.
And I think the fork in the road

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00:19:41,240 –> 00:19:45,640
is exactly what you’re talking
about, Karen, taking the time to

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00:19:45,640 –> 00:19:52,640
invest in yourself to also be a
part of that ability to engage

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00:19:52,640 –> 00:19:57,880
in that journey.
Short of that, you and I think I

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00:19:57,880 –> 00:20:00,040
did this.
I didn’t invest in myself,

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00:20:00,040 –> 00:20:03,120
frankly, but you did.
And I see the difference in our

347
00:20:03,120 –> 00:20:05,760
journeys.
I wanted someone to take care of

348
00:20:05,760 –> 00:20:07,800
it for me.
I worked in a law firm and if I

349
00:20:07,800 –> 00:20:12,360
just get the best attorney in
this county, I’m going to be

350
00:20:12,360 –> 00:20:14,200
fine.
Well, that wasn’t true.

351
00:20:14,200 –> 00:20:18,240
But you took the pathway of I’m
going to do what it takes to

352
00:20:18,240 –> 00:20:22,480
invest in myself to become clear
to do what I can do so that when

353
00:20:22,480 –> 00:20:26,360
you emerged on the other side,
you not only.

354
00:20:28,040 –> 00:20:32,240
Emerged a better person, but I’m
sure your children and the

355
00:20:32,240 –> 00:20:36,600
family unit did as well.
That’s just my presumption, but

356
00:20:36,600 –> 00:20:38,600
I see how you’re speaking about
it.

357
00:20:38,600 –> 00:20:41,080
So I think I’m can be pretty
confident there.

358
00:20:41,800 –> 00:20:44,040
You know, I think it’s, it’s
such a good point.

359
00:20:44,040 –> 00:20:45,920
You know, we don’t want to
diminish.

360
00:20:45,920 –> 00:20:48,960
It’s vitally important that you
understand the legal process,

361
00:20:48,960 –> 00:20:53,680
that you understand your
finances, and yet you could, you

362
00:20:53,680 –> 00:20:56,320
could emerge with the best
settlement.

363
00:20:57,000 –> 00:21:00,280
And if you haven’t done any of
your inner work, if you haven’t

364
00:21:00,280 –> 00:21:03,200
looked at that, if you haven’t
healed your heart, refined your

365
00:21:03,200 –> 00:21:07,840
character, there is no freedom.
You have a piece of paper and

366
00:21:07,840 –> 00:21:11,840
maybe a lot of money, but
nothing else has changed.

367
00:21:11,880 –> 00:21:15,720
I have had people come to me, I
think the latest was 12 years,

368
00:21:15,720 –> 00:21:20,720
10 or 12 years post divorce,
lost all those years because

369
00:21:20,720 –> 00:21:22,520
they were still looking across
the street.

370
00:21:22,520 –> 00:21:25,120
They were looking at what their
spouse did and their spouse was

371
00:21:25,120 –> 00:21:29,000
with.
And and so the freedom doesn’t

372
00:21:29,000 –> 00:21:31,520
come from the piece of paper and
the finances.

373
00:21:31,520 –> 00:21:34,920
We need it and it’s important,
but that doesn’t bring the

374
00:21:34,920 –> 00:21:37,600
freedom.
The freedom comes from

375
00:21:37,640 –> 00:21:42,160
disentangling yourself from the
other human being and then

376
00:21:42,520 –> 00:21:44,920
paying attention to what got me
there.

377
00:21:45,200 –> 00:21:49,120
What was the luggage I threw on
the table with my spouse and how

378
00:21:49,120 –> 00:21:52,960
can I clean that up so that I
am?

379
00:21:55,120 –> 00:21:58,080
I have a colleague who says be
the one to meet the one.

380
00:21:58,080 –> 00:22:02,880
Become the one to meet the 1:00
so that I am everything I want

381
00:22:03,200 –> 00:22:06,080
in a partner.
I am calm, Claire and confident.

382
00:22:06,080 –> 00:22:13,200
I am able to regulate my
emotions, manage my mindset,

383
00:22:13,320 –> 00:22:18,960
notice my judgement, work on my
unforgiveness, address my fear

384
00:22:18,960 –> 00:22:21,080
of conflict.
I was talking to a client

385
00:22:21,080 –> 00:22:23,640
yesterday and I was like, that’s
not conflict, that’s just a

386
00:22:23,640 –> 00:22:26,880
disagreement.
Yeah, but I was raised where

387
00:22:26,880 –> 00:22:30,040
anytime there was a
disagreement, XY and Z would

388
00:22:30,040 –> 00:22:33,160
happen.
That’s the inner work that we do

389
00:22:33,440 –> 00:22:36,920
that enables somebody.
And then honestly, I walked away

390
00:22:36,920 –> 00:22:42,640
with $60,000 of debt, two kids,
maybe half of what I should have

391
00:22:42,640 –> 00:22:46,240
gotten in child support, and I
had this Commission only job

392
00:22:46,240 –> 00:22:49,800
with almost no clients left.
And so one could say my

393
00:22:49,800 –> 00:22:52,320
settlement was as horrific as it
could get.

394
00:22:53,720 –> 00:22:58,160
I have loved my life.
I feel so deeply grateful for

395
00:22:58,160 –> 00:23:01,480
both my divorce.
And last night I was speaking to

396
00:23:01,480 –> 00:23:04,040
a client who was talking about
regret and I wished I had

397
00:23:04,040 –> 00:23:06,760
married the other one.
And I’m like, I am so glad I

398
00:23:06,760 –> 00:23:11,840
married my husband because
number one, raising the two

399
00:23:11,840 –> 00:23:15,120
human beings we brought into the
world has been such a gift.

400
00:23:15,360 –> 00:23:21,160
But even more than that, because
of him, I am who I am today and

401
00:23:21,160 –> 00:23:23,320
and because of the work that I
chose to do.

402
00:23:23,320 –> 00:23:28,640
And so I think that each
listener, we can take the

403
00:23:28,640 –> 00:23:32,800
circumstances that we’re facing
and look at it from a vantage

404
00:23:32,800 –> 00:23:35,320
point that serves us.
And the final thing I want to

405
00:23:35,320 –> 00:23:42,360
say is my children are rock
stars only because I didn’t, I

406
00:23:42,360 –> 00:23:47,440
didn’t flood them with my stuff.
And that’s so important.

407
00:23:47,440 –> 00:23:51,800
And so we can break generational
chains of whatever we came from

408
00:23:52,040 –> 00:23:56,680
by getting healthy and then just
leading by example with our

409
00:23:56,680 –> 00:23:58,440
children.
And even if you have adult

410
00:23:58,440 –> 00:24:01,080
children, the best time to start
is today.

411
00:24:02,320 –> 00:24:05,640
Yeah, I agree with that.
And you know, and your children,

412
00:24:06,080 –> 00:24:10,440
my daughter got married five
years ago now and you know, you

413
00:24:10,440 –> 00:24:12,720
have to put I’m very I love
marriage.

414
00:24:12,720 –> 00:24:15,920
I just got divorced again, but I
love marriage and all my friends

415
00:24:15,920 –> 00:24:17,560
and family say you better never
get married again.

416
00:24:17,720 –> 00:24:19,760
But anyway, I’m a marrying kind
of girl.

417
00:24:19,760 –> 00:24:22,880
I love relationships, but
keeping that pot just because

418
00:24:22,880 –> 00:24:28,760
you can’t, you’re divorced from
your kids parent, other parent,

419
00:24:30,360 –> 00:24:32,640
doesn’t mean you have to be
negative about them entering

420
00:24:32,640 –> 00:24:34,440
into divorce.
You know, I hear a lot of

421
00:24:34,440 –> 00:24:35,640
divorce.
He’s saying, Oh my God, I’m

422
00:24:35,640 –> 00:24:37,160
telling my daughter she
shouldn’t get married.

423
00:24:37,160 –> 00:24:38,840
Marriage is terrible, blah,
blah, blah.

424
00:24:38,840 –> 00:24:40,080
Because they’re still living in
there.

425
00:24:40,080 –> 00:24:42,320
They haven’t done the work that
with you like you’re speaking

426
00:24:42,320 –> 00:24:43,920
about.
So they live in this negative

427
00:24:43,920 –> 00:24:47,800
Nelly kind of thing where I’m
like, great, you know,

428
00:24:48,600 –> 00:24:50,400
communicate, communicate,
communicate.

429
00:24:50,400 –> 00:24:54,360
And, you know, I just give them
hindsight tip kind of tips if,

430
00:24:54,480 –> 00:24:57,280
if they ask right or, and that’s
hard too.

431
00:24:57,280 –> 00:25:00,760
And I think that if you haven’t
done the work to heal yourself

432
00:25:00,760 –> 00:25:03,880
from your own divorce, you’re
not able to do that.

433
00:25:03,880 –> 00:25:07,120
So it it spreads out in so many
areas of your life moving

434
00:25:07,120 –> 00:25:08,920
forward.
And it’s one quick life that we

435
00:25:08,920 –> 00:25:11,240
have.
That’s so true.

436
00:25:11,840 –> 00:25:15,760
And you know, I can tell for our
clients coming through our

437
00:25:16,000 –> 00:25:21,080
process of the MD’s portrait, if
they have done the work, they’re

438
00:25:21,080 –> 00:25:24,120
approaching decisions very
differently.

439
00:25:24,120 –> 00:25:28,520
They’re not in that space of
saying, well, I’m going to let

440
00:25:28,520 –> 00:25:34,000
my spouse choose the mediator so
that, you know, I want

441
00:25:34,000 –> 00:25:41,280
exacerbate the emotions here or
I don’t want to take what’s not

442
00:25:41,280 –> 00:25:46,920
mine or, you know, I’m, I have
to tiptoe very carefully so that

443
00:25:46,920 –> 00:25:50,480
he or she doesn’t get upset.
And to your point of staying on

444
00:25:50,480 –> 00:25:53,720
your side of the street, if
you’re doing that work for

445
00:25:53,720 –> 00:25:57,160
yourself, you can just make
better decisions, more

446
00:25:57,160 –> 00:26:01,120
practical, more pragmatic
decisions as you’re working

447
00:26:01,120 –> 00:26:03,440
through your finances and as
you’re working with your

448
00:26:03,440 –> 00:26:05,480
attorney through these legal
decisions.

449
00:26:05,680 –> 00:26:09,120
It does make a difference.
Yeah, 100%.

450
00:26:09,640 –> 00:26:12,880
And so much of what we do is
unconscious, right?

451
00:26:12,880 –> 00:26:18,160
So it’s whether I behave the way
I do because I was raised by, in

452
00:26:18,160 –> 00:26:22,240
my case of rageaholic and an
alcoholic or because of my

453
00:26:22,240 –> 00:26:25,680
Catholic upbringing or because
of my Italian and Irish heritage

454
00:26:25,680 –> 00:26:30,040
or because of American Society.
So we we all have and then we

455
00:26:30,040 –> 00:26:35,000
have unconscious beliefs.
And when you slam into the wall

456
00:26:35,000 –> 00:26:39,320
of high conflict divorce, there
is an invitation to slow down.

457
00:26:39,320 –> 00:26:42,480
And as we talk about the work, I
would love to touch on three

458
00:26:42,480 –> 00:26:45,960
things.
And the first one is mindset.

459
00:26:46,520 –> 00:26:51,800
You know, we kind of go along
somewhat unconscious.

460
00:26:51,800 –> 00:26:53,840
I was high, I was highly
unconscious.

461
00:26:53,840 –> 00:26:55,760
And we just do whatever we’re
doing.

462
00:26:55,960 –> 00:26:58,720
But when you slam into this
particular wall, there’s an

463
00:26:58,720 –> 00:27:01,600
opportunity to say, let me slow
things down.

464
00:27:01,600 –> 00:27:05,160
How am I looking at this?
Why am I always worried about

465
00:27:05,160 –> 00:27:09,280
him?
And so less likely to take care

466
00:27:09,280 –> 00:27:11,560
of me.
And so one thing that my clients

467
00:27:11,560 –> 00:27:16,200
will walk through, it’s like,
where are you on your list of

468
00:27:16,200 –> 00:27:19,360
priorities?
And typically I’m, I’m not at

469
00:27:19,360 –> 00:27:22,240
the bottom of the list.
I’m just not on the list at all.

470
00:27:22,480 –> 00:27:27,080
So, So what does that mean?
Well, everything you do, I say

471
00:27:27,080 –> 00:27:30,320
yes.
When I want to say no, I, I act

472
00:27:30,320 –> 00:27:33,040
like a martyr because I did
things I didn’t want to do that

473
00:27:33,040 –> 00:27:35,080
I could have said, you know,
like they’re all of these

474
00:27:35,080 –> 00:27:36,640
things.
And so the first thing is

475
00:27:36,640 –> 00:27:38,720
mindset.
How are you looking at things?

476
00:27:38,720 –> 00:27:43,120
How are you looking at your
situation and even how are you

477
00:27:43,120 –> 00:27:46,120
looking at your soon to be ex?
Because when you can start

478
00:27:46,120 –> 00:27:48,760
saying what is my thought about
that?

479
00:27:48,760 –> 00:27:51,960
Oh, so for me he’s going to get
custody of the kids.

480
00:27:52,960 –> 00:27:55,560
It took me so long to slow it
down and say, well, why in the

481
00:27:55,560 –> 00:27:57,880
world would I think he’s going
to get all the custody of the

482
00:27:57,880 –> 00:28:02,040
kids because he says so.
And why do I listen to that?

483
00:28:02,360 –> 00:28:05,360
And what else is possible?
And what did my attorney tell

484
00:28:05,360 –> 00:28:06,760
me?
And why am I listening to my

485
00:28:06,760 –> 00:28:09,800
spouse over my attorney when my
attorney actually does this not,

486
00:28:09,800 –> 00:28:13,680
you know, for a living.
And, and, and then you start

487
00:28:13,680 –> 00:28:20,040
looking at, well, I’m, I’m so on
my ear, which I was so

488
00:28:20,040 –> 00:28:24,600
emotionally overwhelmed.
Do I even understand what that

489
00:28:24,600 –> 00:28:27,000
means?
Like, do I know when I get

490
00:28:27,000 –> 00:28:29,320
triggered, how it shows up in my
body?

491
00:28:30,000 –> 00:28:34,040
Do I know when I get triggered,
how to bring myself back to calm

492
00:28:34,040 –> 00:28:39,120
rather than acting out of that
trigger and being reactive and

493
00:28:40,280 –> 00:28:43,400
throwing emotional grenades
across the room, which is what

494
00:28:43,400 –> 00:28:46,440
we end up doing.
And so I think that the three

495
00:28:46,440 –> 00:28:50,200
areas are really mindset,
emotional regulation and

496
00:28:50,200 –> 00:28:53,440
boundaries.
And when we can begin to work on

497
00:28:53,440 –> 00:28:56,280
those just baby steps, just
change one thing.

498
00:28:57,040 –> 00:29:00,080
Just the next time you think the
thought, say, how true is that?

499
00:29:00,360 –> 00:29:02,120
That, that that’s that’s the
thing.

500
00:29:02,360 –> 00:29:05,120
How true is that?
And then if you’re like, no,

501
00:29:05,120 –> 00:29:07,960
that’s true, he’s going to screw
me and take all that money.

502
00:29:08,560 –> 00:29:13,560
OK, What else might be true?
What is your attorney saying?

503
00:29:13,640 –> 00:29:16,520
What are your legal rights?
What else might be possible?

504
00:29:16,520 –> 00:29:21,040
And if you’ve been bullied, then
their voice is so very loud and

505
00:29:21,040 –> 00:29:23,840
your inner critic is equally as
loud.

506
00:29:23,840 –> 00:29:29,240
And the thing we want you to tap
into is your intuition, your

507
00:29:29,240 –> 00:29:34,000
gut, your inner wisdom.
And that’s going to whisper.

508
00:29:34,320 –> 00:29:38,440
And until you calm the chaos of
your life, you’re not going to

509
00:29:38,440 –> 00:29:41,440
hear the whisper.
And that whisper is the guiding

510
00:29:41,440 –> 00:29:43,400
light that’s going to get you to
where you need to go.

511
00:29:45,960 –> 00:29:51,120
You like it?
I do too and it and Karen, is

512
00:29:51,160 –> 00:29:55,520
this what you walk through
people through in your 12 step,

513
00:29:56,600 –> 00:29:59,560
your 12 step divorce recovery
program?

514
00:29:59,960 –> 00:30:04,000
Is that what this is?
Yeah, so, so one of the steps is

515
00:30:04,000 –> 00:30:07,760
so, so the first step is about
staying calm and learning to

516
00:30:07,760 –> 00:30:12,240
take a pause, right?
Because I mean, I have clients

517
00:30:12,240 –> 00:30:14,920
where it’s like I’ll even be
coaching them and their, their

518
00:30:15,000 –> 00:30:18,280
their spouse or their ex text
them and they’re about to stick

519
00:30:18,280 –> 00:30:20,200
their fingers on the phone and
I’m like, put the phone down.

520
00:30:20,520 –> 00:30:23,720
Breathe.
There’s no fire.

521
00:30:24,400 –> 00:30:27,040
There’s no fire.
Let’s look at how did that make

522
00:30:27,040 –> 00:30:28,880
you feel?
My heart’s pounding.

523
00:30:28,920 –> 00:30:30,360
I’m angry.
Like whatever.

524
00:30:30,360 –> 00:30:34,520
OK, let’s breathe.
What did you make that mean?

525
00:30:35,280 –> 00:30:37,960
He said, she said blah, blah.
What did you make that mean?

526
00:30:38,280 –> 00:30:39,480
I’m bad.
I’m wrong.

527
00:30:39,480 –> 00:30:46,080
I’m what if it just means that
he or she is splashing their

528
00:30:46,080 –> 00:30:48,800
emotional reaction onto you?
What if it just means that

529
00:30:48,800 –> 00:30:51,080
they’re angry that they’re out
of control?

530
00:30:51,080 –> 00:30:53,480
What if you just make it mean
what it is?

531
00:30:54,000 –> 00:30:57,960
And so that that I am the center
that people pleasing peace,

532
00:30:57,960 –> 00:31:01,800
which is anything that anyone
says or does says something

533
00:31:01,800 –> 00:31:04,520
about me.
And I’ve raised my children on

534
00:31:04,520 –> 00:31:06,000
this.
It’s like what somebody else

535
00:31:06,000 –> 00:31:09,360
says or does is about them.
What you say or do is about you

536
00:31:10,560 –> 00:31:12,200
keep your side of the street
clean.

537
00:31:12,200 –> 00:31:14,960
And so, so yeah, so we walk them
through that.

538
00:31:14,960 –> 00:31:17,480
Another one is mindset.
Mindset.

539
00:31:17,480 –> 00:31:19,680
There’s four, there’s four
things, right?

540
00:31:19,680 –> 00:31:23,440
There are our assumptions,
because it happened before, it’s

541
00:31:23,440 –> 00:31:27,000
going to happen again.
Our interpretations, which is my

542
00:31:27,000 –> 00:31:29,600
perspective of what you said and
what it means.

543
00:31:30,320 –> 00:31:33,360
Our limiting beliefs, which is
what I talked about earlier, our

544
00:31:33,360 –> 00:31:36,360
cultural upbringing, religious
upbringing and everything else.

545
00:31:37,280 –> 00:31:39,800
Our beliefs, those limited
beliefs are often the

546
00:31:39,800 –> 00:31:43,000
unconscious ones that we don’t
even realize, and then the one

547
00:31:43,000 –> 00:31:46,800
we all love so much, which is
our inner critic.

548
00:31:47,240 –> 00:31:52,360
And when we start going, oh, so
that’s what’s going on between

549
00:31:52,360 –> 00:31:54,720
my ears.
Well, what if I just clean all

550
00:31:54,720 –> 00:31:56,600
of that up?
What if I just slow down?

551
00:31:56,600 –> 00:32:00,040
I’d let him or her deal with
their craziness.

552
00:32:00,040 –> 00:32:04,320
And I just, I just focus and
clean that up and start noticing

553
00:32:04,320 –> 00:32:08,560
and start questioning.
And certainly having a coach or

554
00:32:08,560 –> 00:32:12,200
a therapist as a sounding board
because, you know, if you’re

555
00:32:12,200 –> 00:32:14,200
just in your head, that’s never
good.

556
00:32:14,760 –> 00:32:20,280
Those things go a long way.
We have one on on choosing

557
00:32:20,280 –> 00:32:23,960
between judgment and curiosity.
You know, you enter divorce,

558
00:32:23,960 –> 00:32:26,680
we’re all really judgmental.
We’re judgmental of our spouse.

559
00:32:26,680 –> 00:32:28,600
We’re judgmental of the divorce
system.

560
00:32:28,600 –> 00:32:30,680
We’re judgmental of our
financial planners.

561
00:32:30,680 –> 00:32:33,000
Like there’s just judgment going
everywhere.

562
00:32:33,960 –> 00:32:35,520
Get curious.
Wow.

563
00:32:35,520 –> 00:32:39,280
I’m so triggered by Catherine
and Karen and what they told me.

564
00:32:39,760 –> 00:32:42,600
OK, Why am I so triggered?
I have a lot of money fear.

565
00:32:43,080 –> 00:32:46,920
OK, so what’s going on with my
money fear?

566
00:32:47,680 –> 00:32:50,560
I’ve had millionaires say I’m
going to be homeless and in the

567
00:32:50,560 –> 00:32:53,720
street and I’m like, what’s the
likelihood?

568
00:32:53,720 –> 00:32:55,360
OK, maybe it’s not going to be
that.

569
00:32:55,480 –> 00:32:58,120
OK, let’s start looking at what
is likely what’s going on

570
00:32:58,120 –> 00:33:00,400
beneath that.
It’s a money fear, which I’m

571
00:33:00,400 –> 00:33:02,040
sure you guys deal with all the
time.

572
00:33:02,040 –> 00:33:06,120
So those are the things that we
take them step by step through

573
00:33:06,120 –> 00:33:10,840
the 12 step program to it’s all
inner work.

574
00:33:10,840 –> 00:33:16,080
The 12 step program is all inner
work that has beautiful outer

575
00:33:16,080 –> 00:33:18,440
impacts.
Once you start behaving out of

576
00:33:18,440 –> 00:33:23,600
that, those new awarenesses.
Yeah, that’s great.

577
00:33:23,600 –> 00:33:25,960
I mean, Karen, you’re sharing so
much wisdom and everything that

578
00:33:26,120 –> 00:33:28,880
you’re saying today for people.
I’d like to just share a couple

579
00:33:28,880 –> 00:33:31,800
of highlights of a few important
takeaways that I’m hearing.

580
00:33:32,200 –> 00:33:34,080
You know, if you’re going
through a divorce and you need

581
00:33:34,080 –> 00:33:38,560
to find that calm, you know, I
love your stay on your side of

582
00:33:38,560 –> 00:33:42,680
the street analogy.
It’s really, gosh, if you could

583
00:33:42,680 –> 00:33:45,640
just start with that one
statement throughout your day

584
00:33:45,640 –> 00:33:49,040
today, you know, OK, am I on my
side of the street?

585
00:33:49,040 –> 00:33:51,240
You know, I’m doing it right now
myself personally.

586
00:33:52,040 –> 00:33:56,000
And, and that will really help
you shift that, excuse me, that

587
00:33:56,000 –> 00:33:59,440
mindset that you’re talking
about because your mind is so

588
00:33:59,440 –> 00:34:02,160
powerful and your mind is going
to direct you through this

589
00:34:02,160 –> 00:34:05,640
divorce process and beyond.
So if you could just take away

590
00:34:05,640 –> 00:34:09,560
today the mindset shift and
staying on your side of the

591
00:34:09,560 –> 00:34:13,120
street, I think that you’re
going to change the way you move

592
00:34:13,120 –> 00:34:14,520
through the rest of your
process.

593
00:34:16,400 –> 00:34:19,560
For sure.
And you know, Karen, I really

594
00:34:19,560 –> 00:34:24,400
appreciate what you said about
put your phone down, take the

595
00:34:24,400 –> 00:34:29,560
time to pause and breathe
because every day I’m speaking

596
00:34:29,560 –> 00:34:37,120
to people who are in the, I
think the term is emotional

597
00:34:37,120 –> 00:34:41,679
dysregulation of not of just the
response.

598
00:34:41,679 –> 00:34:44,480
Yesterday, I was on the phone
with someone and she was trying

599
00:34:44,480 –> 00:34:47,159
to make a decision.
And she said, he’s texting me

600
00:34:47,159 –> 00:34:49,400
right now.
I have to make the decision

601
00:34:49,400 –> 00:34:52,560
right now.
And I said, well, do you like, I

602
00:34:52,560 –> 00:34:55,360
can understand the emotion, but
do you?

603
00:34:55,360 –> 00:34:58,680
And is that more important than
getting financial clarity?

604
00:34:58,680 –> 00:35:02,000
You get to decide that.
You know, I’m not a divorce

605
00:35:02,000 –> 00:35:06,760
coach, but I see it happen.
And so I appreciate that you you

606
00:35:06,800 –> 00:35:11,280
offer this for people at because
divorce can go fast.

607
00:35:11,480 –> 00:35:16,480
It can be hugely disruptive and
finding that ability to make

608
00:35:16,480 –> 00:35:19,880
good decisions is so important.
So thank you again for being

609
00:35:19,880 –> 00:35:23,920
with us today, your story, your
work, you’re doing what you

610
00:35:24,040 –> 00:35:28,000
offer hope for people who feel
stuck in pain, fear and

611
00:35:28,000 –> 00:35:31,440
confusion.
So can you talk and let our

612
00:35:31,440 –> 00:35:34,880
listeners know where they can
learn more about Journey Beyond

613
00:35:34,880 –> 00:35:37,240
Divorce and connect with your
resources?

614
00:35:37,600 –> 00:35:40,800
Yeah, thanks so much.
That’s my dog if you hear her in

615
00:35:40,800 –> 00:35:44,640
the background.
So Journey Beyond Divorce is

616
00:35:44,640 –> 00:35:47,360
also a podcast.
We’re one of the top podcasts,

617
00:35:48,040 –> 00:35:51,840
divorce podcasts in the world
and in the United States, and we

618
00:35:51,840 –> 00:35:56,400
have over 425 episodes on our
website,

619
00:35:56,840 –> 00:36:01,520
whichisjbddivorcesupport.com.
You can actually grab a series

620
00:36:01,520 –> 00:36:06,360
if there’s something specific or
specific stage of divorce you’re

621
00:36:06,360 –> 00:36:09,400
in like a a curated playlist
just for that.

622
00:36:09,760 –> 00:36:14,800
And we have our gift to to your
listeners is a rapid relief

623
00:36:14,800 –> 00:36:18,880
call.
And that is a call with one of

624
00:36:18,880 –> 00:36:22,720
our coaches where you’re you can
get clear and you can find out

625
00:36:22,720 –> 00:36:26,680
what other support we have that
might serve you and how coaching

626
00:36:26,680 –> 00:36:33,560
has worked and supported others.
And so rapidreliefcall.com nice

627
00:36:33,560 –> 00:36:37,960
and easy is the way to get on
our schedule.

628
00:36:37,960 –> 00:36:41,840
And I so appreciate, I’m so glad
to have met the two of you and

629
00:36:41,840 –> 00:36:49,680
so appreciate the the robust
support that you offer clients,

630
00:36:49,680 –> 00:36:53,440
especially having both the
financial and legal background

631
00:36:53,440 –> 00:36:56,800
to help them.
And I think that, you know, for

632
00:36:56,800 –> 00:37:01,360
me, with every client I talked
to, the one thing I tell as

633
00:37:01,360 –> 00:37:05,120
coaches, we’re supposed to ask
and not tell.

634
00:37:05,120 –> 00:37:10,960
But the one tell is always find
yourself a rock star financial

635
00:37:10,960 –> 00:37:13,440
professional.
Because no matter how much or

636
00:37:13,440 –> 00:37:17,440
how little you have, it’s a
vital part of the divorce

637
00:37:17,440 –> 00:37:22,080
journey.
And especially if you have money

638
00:37:22,080 –> 00:37:27,040
mindset issues.
People like you are just gold

639
00:37:27,040 –> 00:37:28,520
for everyone going through
divorce.

640
00:37:28,520 –> 00:37:30,240
So thank you so much for what
you do.

641
00:37:31,240 –> 00:37:32,720
And likewise, and thank you for
that.

642
00:37:33,280 –> 00:37:36,200
To our listeners of navigating
divorce and you feel like you’re

643
00:37:36,200 –> 00:37:38,520
constantly in defense mode,
you’re not alone.

644
00:37:38,720 –> 00:37:41,800
At My Divorce Solution, we help
you step out of that survival

645
00:37:41,800 –> 00:37:44,520
mode by giving the tools to
prepare and protect your

646
00:37:44,520 –> 00:37:47,800
finances as you move forward.
So visit us at My Divorce

647
00:37:47,800 –> 00:37:51,400
solution.com to learn how the
MD’s financial portrait can help

648
00:37:51,400 –> 00:37:54,480
you organize your assets,
prepare for negotiations, and

649
00:37:54,480 –> 00:37:56,600
take the guesswork out of your
next steps.

650
00:37:57,760 –> 00:38:01,920
And be sure to join the NDS
Community, your hub for trusted

651
00:38:01,920 –> 00:38:05,000
resources, expert guidance, and
real connection.

652
00:38:05,320 –> 00:38:08,160
Whether you’re just starting
your divorce journey or already

653
00:38:08,160 –> 00:38:12,080
rebuilding, it’s a safe space to
access free financial tools,

654
00:38:12,320 –> 00:38:14,720
find support, and move forward
with confidence.

655
00:38:15,000 –> 00:38:16,720
We’ll drop the link in the show
notes.

656
00:38:17,280 –> 00:38:20,440
And don’t forget to like, follow
and share this episode.

657
00:38:20,680 –> 00:38:24,120
Until next time, stay on your
side of the street, take a

658
00:38:24,120 –> 00:38:27,000
breath, protect your peace, and
let knowledge be your power.

659
00:38:29,040 –> 00:38:33,040
Thanks for joining us on another
episode of WeChat Divorce.

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00:38:33,480 –> 00:38:36,520
We hope this episode was
informative and supportive on

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00:38:36,520 –> 00:38:39,360
your divorce journey.
If you’re looking for more

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00:38:39,360 –> 00:38:42,560
support for navigating divorce
with confidence and clarity,

663
00:38:42,920 –> 00:38:46,680
head over to
azure-emu-499854.hostingersite.com/ for more

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00:38:46,680 –> 00:38:50,840
podcast episodes, divorce
events, and resources for your

665
00:38:50,840 –> 00:38:53,160
divorce.
We’ll see you back here for our

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00:38:53,160 –> 00:38:54,040
next episode.