Divorcing a Narcissist: Post-Separation Abuse, Manipulation with Jackie Miller

0:01

Welcome to WeChat Divorce, hosted by Karen Chellew, Legal Liaison and Catherine Shanahan, CDFA.

Each episode we sit down with divorce professionals and industry experts to provide insights and frank discussions about real people, real situations, and real divorce to help you achieve your best life post divorce.

0:24

This episode of WeChat Divorce is brought to you by My Divorce Solution, offering divorce financial planning so clients can secure the divorce settlement they deserve.

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Access Welcome back to WeChat Divorce, brought to you by My Divorce Solution.

0:44

I’m Karen Chalou, legal liaison here to help you move through the divorce process with clarity and confidence.

And I’m Catherine Shanahan, Certified Divorce Financial Analyst and your financial partner through every stage of divorce.

You know, at MD’s, we believe clarity is the first step to reclaiming control, especially when the divorce process feels so chaotic, which most of them do.

1:09

For sure, I’m really excited to talk with Jackie today.

Her role and as a divorce coach with high conflict divorce is really what we see every day, all day here at NDS and it’s nice to have this resource for them.

1:27

Yeah, she talks about Crazy Town.

Is that the name of her podcast, Crazy Town?

OK, so gosh, I know if you’re listening to this.

And we all believe we’re dealing with narcissists and most of us were or are, I should say, but you do feel like you’re in crazy town.

1:43

And I think that if unless you have a spouse that treats you like that, you don’t really get it where you look so put together and you look so normal.

And you know, your spouse looks so normal and it’s so nice to the outside world.

But in your head you’re you’re like, I’m freaking crazy or he’s making me feel crazy or she’s making me feel crazy.

2:03

But I’m not crazy, you know?

And it’s so nice post divorce.

And believe me, it doesn’t happen when you get your divorce decree.

It could take you a couple of years where you start saying, well, wait a minute, I’m not crazy.

Right.

You may be in crazy town, but you’re not crazy.

2:20

And that’s really an important concept to understand.

I feel like we have a lot of clients who say, you know, I believe that my case is very different from any that you’ve encountered or, you know, my situation is so different and for people to understand that no, this, this situation, while yours may be unique, this whole notion of crazy town is real.

2:47

And the when you can adopt that and learn some tools to get through that it it will really help you immensely navigate your divorce process.

Oh, absolutely.

You know, sometimes realizing that this crazy town isn’t necessarily about you, but somebody who’s driving you crazy, if you can learn to navigate that and take control over that, it will make your process a lot better.

3:15

So it’ll be good to have this resource for our listeners.

So if you feel like you’re living in crazy town, stay tuned.

Sounds good.

Let’s get in today’s interview.

Our guest today is someone who not only understands the chaos that can follow a high conflict divorce, but who has turned that experience into a powerful framework to help others rise above it through strategy, nervous system regulation really, really important there, and a deep understanding of post separation abuse.

3:44

Jackie Miller teaches people how to protect their peace and move forward without getting pulled back into dysfunction.

Her work is such a compliment to what we do here at NDS because we know that you can’t make smart financial decisions when you’re still trapped in emotional survival.

4:00

Today’s conversation is all about reclaiming your clarity, your confidence, and your power.

Hello Jackie, Welcome to WeChat.

Divorce hello you guys I’m so happy to be here we’re.

4:19

Excited too.

Yeah, really looking forward to this conversation because your work in high conflict divorce space aligns with something we see every day at MD’s how hard it is to make clear financial decisions when someone is still being emotionally and mentally manipulated.

4:37

You know, dividing emotions from making good decisions is highly challenging, as we all know.

But before we get into the details, let me introduce you properly.

Jackie Miller is a high conflict divorce coach and post separation abuse strategist who helps women disentangle from toxic, toxic relationships, reclaim their energy and stop reacting to narcissistic manipulation.

5:03

Wait, that’s a grace to study.

Before you you you have a fun day ahead of yourself.

Oh, I know, right?

Hence the yellow.

OK, especially inside the family court system.

5:20

She’s also the host of Out of Crazy Town, Your Guide to Divorcing a narcissist and a survivor of a 16 1/2 year emotionally and financially abusive marriage followed by a high conflict divorce.

Jackie brings lived experience, neuroscience and practical strategy to every client and every conversation.

5:41

That’s amazing.

Thank you.

So, Jackie, to start us off, we’d love to hear a little bit about your journey.

We know just briefly what brought you to this work, but talk a little bit more about, you know, what happened that you realize there was a path out of crazy Town.

6:00

Yeah, absolutely.

I, as you mentioned, I was in a marriage for 16 1/2 years that I didn’t know what was happening as the years went by, sort of the slow, insidious, you know, everything from isolation to you mentioned the financial control, which is why I love what you guys do.

6:16

But it was, I didn’t understand what was happening.

And I, I just sort of, it was my husband.

And so when he told me things, I believed him and he was a self pronounced, you know, expert on all the money and finances and he knows what he’s doing and I don’t.

And so 6 1/2 years went by and I was, I’m the one that filed for a divorce, but it was so hard for me.

6:38

And one of the reasons was I was so embarrassed to admit even to an attorney, I did not have one account that have my name on it that we shared in 16 1/2 years, not one credit card with our name on it.

He insisted I do not take his last name.

6:55

He insisted our children did not take his last name.

It, it was bizarre, but he had these really amazing reasons.

You guys, I know you’re probably thinking what possible amazing reason, but that’s the mental mind games that they play.

You know that and they’re slow and they plant seeds and, and before I knew it, I was terrified to file one, because I knew it would be war.

7:19

And two, I literally had nothing.

I was living in a multimillion dollar house at the beach in one of the most expensive zip codes, driving a very expensive car.

I had 0 access to any money at all and we were living this great life and I thought I don’t know how to do this.

7:36

I don’t know how many get divorced.

So eventually I did when things got bad enough I couldn’t stay.

And when it started, I then learned about something called post separation abuse.

And when you’re in a very controlling marriage or relationship and then you leave, they’re going to go and find other tools to continue to exert that control.

7:57

And wow, did I find out how they do that with the legal system.

Financial abuse just takes on different forms.

And when I got done, I thought, how are people doing this?

How are women or the out spouse?

It doesn’t even have to be the woman.

I have clients that are men that are not the primary earners and I don’t know how they’re doing this and I have to help.

8:19

And so I started a podcast and then I decided to become a divorce coach.

And here I am today, six years later, hundreds of women, mostly I’ve helped and, and I do have male clients, like I said, but I just had, I had to do something, you guys, because it was so brutal.

8:36

Yeah, well, it’s good that you found the strength to get out for one, and #2 that you had the courage to go out on your own and start helping others because it’s, you know, scary to be an entrepreneur and to not only Share your story, but to let people lean on you and for you to give them guidance.

8:53

So, you know, there’s always a reason for why we go through what we go through.

And I guess this is your reason.

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.

It’s it’s, you know what I always took around that, you know, when I was in first grade, I wasn’t running around saying I want to be a divorce coach when I grow up.

But it definitely has a lot of purpose and meaning behind it.

9:13

And I love helping people and, and if if nothing else, just giving them the validation that they’re not crazy, that, you know, they can do this, they will make it to the other side, It will be OK.

You know, all of those things.

So super.

Important it’s the hardest thing because having experience with a narcissistic spouse, you do feel crazy.

9:34

You do feel like, OK, is this all created in my mind because on the out the outside world sees this person so differently because they portray themselves so differently.

And then you get inside those walls or inside that car ride and it’s a whole different experience, you know, And so I, I understand the crazy town, you know, and it, and even when I got out it, it takes time to like settle your mind at, at, OK, this is not who you are.

10:05

This is not what it is.

And you’re just going to move forward because it does get worse because the story has become elaborated and made-up and falsified against you.

But you’re just sitting there like, if I defend myself, I sound worse.

So you just got to take it and not say anything and just let people, I mean, I lost friends because they believed things that weren’t true, but you realize they’re not really your friends at that point.

10:27

But still, you still live in that cycle.

So I’m so curious to see how you are working with your clients and how long it takes them to get through that or even to get the courage to initiated a divorce.

Sure, I and I’m sure just like you guys, I love when people come to me beforehand because I wish I had done or researched or gathered more resources.

10:51

I was scared to because it felt very defiant to even research divorce and I was terrified he would see a search or find any shred of any information that I was just planning on, you know, leaving.

But I have to meet clients where they’re at.

11:09

Some of them are ready to go and ready to leave, tell me what to do.

I’ll do all the research.

Others felt like I did where they’re like, I, I can’t do that.

I can’t, I’m too afraid to do that.

I, you know, and so then we back it up when we take even smaller baby steps to get to the goal.

But you touched on something that is such a major theme in every case that I’ve helped with.

11:32

And it’s the false narratives that are installed through many times years of just repeating, repeating.

Our brains love repeat, right?

That’s how they learn, or at least over time, it’s how they will absorb information and they’re masters at that.

11:49

So they’ll plant seeds in front of you.

They’ll say things to other people.

They’ll they’ll make, you know, tiny comments, you know, within earshot of you.

They’ll say it straight to your face.

And then if you do the tiniest thing that is somewhere in the realm of that false narrative, see, see, I told you.

12:05

And then you start to believe it yourself.

And you’re absolutely right.

Unwinding that I mean, I laugh now, thank God, but I I just told you that his big narrative was you can’t see the tax returns.

You have to sign them immediately.

12:21

They’re due yesterday.

It’s going to be your fault.

I’m we’re going to get fined so much money if you don’t sign it right now.

There are no, I can’t explain it to you.

Our tax returns are hundreds of pages long.

What am I going to do?

Sit down and explain it to you.

You, you just you need to sign And this happened year after year and I would say I want to go to the accountant.

12:37

I want to I, I, I when he met me, I was climbed the ladder in pharmaceuticals.

I was like kicking butt making a lot of money.

Just bought my own condo used to do all my own taxes on purpose because I wanted to understand them.

Like, you know, I had a ton of money in my 4 O1 Ki was like crushing it.

12:56

And but years go by and I’ve been told you, you’re not going to get it.

You’re not going to understand it.

Just just I, I know what I’m doing.

You don’t know what I’m doing.

You don’t understand.

It’s too complicated and I started to believe it.

And so when the divorce happened, I was terrified because I thought this really smart financial guy is going to screw me because I don’t know what I’m doing.

13:18

And Jackie, do you?

Would you agree that if you’re not prepared, the court system perpetuates that situation by tenfold?

Oh, absolutely.

I couldn’t.

And, and sadly, my initial attorney, I had three, actually, it was the middle one also took advantage of that ignorance.

13:39

I mean, I realized that this is an extreme case, but even he now agrees that our attorneys were colluding to get us to sell the house because we had a lot of equity.

And if they could get that money in the bank immediately during the divorce, they could keep the conflict going and then just bill the crap out of us and each get, you know, a couple million in their bank account just, and I’m, I actually uncovered it.

14:06

Stupid me, right?

Who doesn’t understand anything.

I was starting to slowly prove to myself that I was smart again.

I uncovered the the whole conspiracy of what they were doing and I had to secretly go hire another attorney and surprise them in court with a new attorney.

14:21

And his attorney literally started screaming in the courtroom when my new I showed up with the new attorney because her partner in crime, my old attorney was not there to continue this.

You know the scheme that they had going but it.

14:38

Is been in that courtroom.

My new attorney turned to me and she goes, I’ve been doing this a long time.

I’ve never seen anything like this.

Like she was throwing things and screaming at the judge and going but but she won’t.

She won’t.

But it’s her fault.

14:53

We we, we like she didn’t even know what to say.

And then my old attorney, who I just fired, tried to put a lien on our house.

Like, he was like, wow, he, which is completely illegal.

Yeah.

And but because we had never signed anything like that.

And I mean, she, my new attorney’s just reading this lien.

15:11

And then I’m like, what are you talking about?

She goes, it’s right here.

She just I’m like, I don’t know what’s going on.

This is crazy.

She goes, Jackie, you just blew up the biggest plan that they had going to try to force you to sell the house or get you.

And and there’s a whole other back story to that.

15:28

I don’t know how I can understand you.

But the the thing, yes, if you don’t do your research, have the right people in your corner, get, you know, just find the right support team, It’s yeah, your journey is going to be a little rougher.

It’s so frustrating to me here.

15:44

Here goes my anxiety.

You know, we had a lot of these, we had a lot of these kind of calls this week with some attorneys and and clients that we have in common.

And it’s just so frustrating because you know, of course Karen and I know the process and you know, we know our clients financials at that point.

16:04

So we have really good insight.

But I just think about the clients and all of them out there and you were one at one time and that are just being taken advantage of.

We’re we’re talking about one case in one town, in one state, in one county.

16:20

Like there’s millions of people that are going through this and they just don’t have the strength or the courage to question the process or fight back.

I mean, thank God you were smart and you were you were courageous to go get a new attorney and come in with the blind side there.

16:35

But it’s not easy to do that because attorneys don’t go like that against each other.

You know, I don’t even know how you replace at least one without the other one at the day of the trial.

Like I don’t, I never hear of that.

I don’t know, Karen, you have better insight here, but.

Well, sometimes we have to help clients make that decision, Jackie, because we can see it from our lens, We can see what’s happening.

17:00

And so we do help, not all the time.

Sometimes it’s not an attorney issue.

Sometimes the client just needs to be more prepared so the attorney can adopt their financial decisions and advocate for them.

That’s a very different situation than what you found yourself in, but it can happen all the time.

17:20

And that’s why I asked about, you know, a lot of people, especially people in your situation, they believe that if they file for divorce, hire an attorney, they’re they’re handing the baton to someone who’s going to fix things, make things better.

17:38

And that is not what’s going to happen if you’re not prepared.

And I think that’s what we’re all saying here today.

Absolutely.

And I have to say, you know, that journey was very difficult.

It, it was horrible.

I’ll use that word.

I am so glad now that I went through it.

17:57

I didn’t know what AK1 was.

I didn’t know, you know, that what, how, how tax returns work that you don’t actually send the supporting documents that you know, maybe your accountant holds on to them.

I don’t know.

There were so many things I didn’t know.

I’ve gotten so good that I found a client and I don’t want to put this out there and like people come to me because you guys are the experts.

18:15

But I’m just going to say that my learning curve was so steep, but I finally, in the end dug in and thought, I have to be the expert in my case.

What I realized was my attorney is a tool.

My attorney is not the expert in my case.

Believe it or not, they are the expert when they have to be for the few minutes they get on the phone with me or they’re, you know, the day or two they’re in front of the judge.

18:37

I’m the one that has to be the expert on everything.

I need to know it inside out.

And I hunkered down and I studied everything I could.

I was up out pulling all nighters, finding LLC, all of his LLCS and hidden ones and companies he had in Australia and all this stuff.

18:55

And I had to figure it out for myself.

And I’m so glad I did because I feel so confident now as an entrepreneur, as just someone out in the world doing my own taxes, trying to grow my business.

The silver lining is all of that has actually helped me in my new life, my new amazing life, by the way.

19:13

And I want people to hear that because that is a possibility for you.

If you’re listening to this podcast and you are terrified and you’re devastated and you’ve convinced yourself that they’re going to leave you with nothing.

And because you don’t know what you’re doing, it is possible.

You’re going to hunker down, you’re going to learn you’re smart, you are smart, you’re you’re very smart and you can do it.

19:34

And that’s where I was.

And and I, I’m glad I had to go through and learn all that stuff, yeah.

Yeah.

Well, you know, the MD’s method is that helping clients be educated in the know so that when they’re making their decisions or making it from their knowledge about the financial impact and they’re confident in that space.

19:57

And so then when they’re doing that, they also need a divorce coach.

So I want to circle back to what you provide to your clients.

Relative to post separation abuse and understanding the science behind it, can you talk about that?

20:13

So while clients are preparing and getting in the know, it doesn’t mean that they’re not going through that abuse and it’s still very traumatic.

So how do you, you know, kind of handle both sides?

Sure.

20:28

Well, I’m my passion is kind of science and so and it’s what I studied even in college.

And so it’s kind of funny that it’s coming full circle into divorce coaching, but it’s very relevant because one of the first things I talked to about clients is what exactly they’re up to.

20:44

So when they get that seven page threatening e-mail, when they get those, you know, crazy accusations that are completely untrue, the goal, there’s a goal behind all of them.

And the goal is to keep you spinning.

The goal is to keep you in fight or flight.

21:00

The goal is to keep because your brain does not work when you’re having high anxiety, at least it doesn’t work as well.

In fact, it’s not supposed to.

And I let them know your body’s doing exactly, exactly what it’s designed to do.

When you see something that looks like a threat, it’s your body’s job to shut down all the systems that it doesn’t need, hyper focus on the problem and start predicting all the horrible things that might happen.

21:25

Because its job is to protect you.

And for you to anticipate any any other thing that might be coming down the Pike, you need to realize that there is a dynamic at play here.

Their goal, again, is to keep you spinning, keep you afraid, so that you can’t operate, so that you can’t hook her down.

21:43

And, and, and look, say, OK, I’m going to sit down today and figure out these financials or at least try to understand them or at least write down questions so that when I meet with you guys, you know, or my attorney, I have some thoughtful, you know, inquisitive, you know, conversation we can have where I can learn.

21:59

They don’t want you in that space because then you gain power, you gain knowledge and you might come back in your divorce case with some rational approaches to how you might settle and and then they lose a little bit of control.

So understanding what’s going on and just the fact that that seven page e-mail is just designed to keep you spinning those crazy false accusations, those I’m going to leave you with nothing.

22:25

As much as scary as it is because you think they might be smarter at what they’re doing.

Take a deep breath and then go ask your experts.

Can they really leave me with nothing?

Well, no, of course they can’t.

You know, you’ve been married 25 years and you know you have three homes and no, they can’t.

22:43

They can’t leave you with nothing.

It’s just designed to keep you spiraling.

So I like to educate people on what’s happening with their bodies and why this person who had control for so many years is now losing control and they’re just going to start firing off anything to keep you entangled, keep you ensnared, keep you spinning.

23:04

That’s the goal.

And that’s kind of the science behind it.

And understanding it, I believe is the first step.

Yeah, we have a new client and right after she hired us because we all invite the spouses to participate if they’d like to participate and he didn’t want to participate it while he still doesn’t want to.

23:25

But immediately he was like, no, he went to an attorney, didn’t hire the attorney apparently, but the attorney I guess not being hired sent a letter to our client and she doesn’t have an attorney yet.

He just blindsided her and says, you know, you don’t need MD’s, here’s the proposal.

23:44

And if you don’t sign by, it was like 10 days later, you know we’re going to go to litigation.

Meanwhile, he never filed yet, right?

So she calls in a panic and she’s like totally panicked.

Like so I said just we can’t give you legal advice, but send us the letter and we’ll let you know if there’s a deadline that you have to go get an attorney immediately to go file.

24:05

So we, we get the letter and it’s just basically a threat.

It was really like to your point to keep her spinning because she has a spinning type of personality.

Like she’s just right.

She was blindsided and she just wants what’s best and she doesn’t want to spend a lot of money in the court system, blah, blah, blah.

So she’s like, Oh my gosh, what am I going to do?

24:22

And now all of a sudden spouse will get on the phone with us.

So they speak, Karen speaks to the spouses, she has a decent conversation with him.

Immediately she’s panicked again because he’s like, I’m not working with them, blah, blah, blah.

So she calls and I I get on with her and he’s there laughing.

24:39

I’m not giving documents.

We don’t need documents.

You know what we have, just take my offer, blah blah blah.

I said he can laugh all he wants.

That’s his opinion and his numbers could be accurate.

But, you know, we just need to verify the numbers with the documents.

Unless you don’t want to verify.

24:55

No, no, no, I’m fine.

Well, here, Fast forward, I just spoke to her the other day.

Now all of a sudden he says he’s going to file.

Now all of a sudden, he sends her a message.

What about an uncontested divorce?

Can we go to mediation?

You know, so their stories change along the way when they’re.

25:12

Not.

Getting what they want from you.

And she’s even saying just and she hasn’t even she’s only in the beginning of our process.

So she’s not even a halfway through yet, but she already feels better.

She already feels like I don’t have to succumb to these threats I’m getting.

25:29

And I’m just going to take my time getting the financial clarity I need.

And whether he wants to wait for me or not, that’s up to him.

And I was like, wow, I’m so proud of you.

You know, good for you.

And she said, But I wouldn’t have done it if I haven’t talked to MD’s, you know, because it gave me some kind of outlook on where it’s, I’m supposed to be going next, right?

25:49

And so it’s really rewarding that we have a process that you don’t have to be controlled by somebody else’s threat.

Oh, I I heard you say this one son a podcast, Catherine, and so I’m just going to say it again.

I wish I had you guys before before I even consulted an attorney before I went through my divorce.

26:10

And and again, if you’re listening to this because you are dealing with somebody like, you know, my ex or who we’re talking about, do not fire MD’s do not get rid of them.

One of the first moves your ex soon to be ex and their attorney is going to make is try to dismantle your support system.

26:26

So when they see somebody like you guys coming, yeah, he’s like, oh, shit, excuse my language.

Like the experts on finances and divorce, like they’re going to try to scare you and keep her spinning.

And like you said, and I’ve seen him many times, try to get rid of attorneys.

26:46

Look, we can do this without attorneys.

We don’t need an attorney.

Listen to me, you’re not an expert in finances and I’m going to say that to the right most because that’s why people are listening to this podcast.

You have to get an expert to help you through this process.

Divorce is mostly financial.

27:03

Yes, of course there’s the kid component.

It’s financial or it’s kids.

Attorneys aren’t experts in finances.

Shocked as I was to learn that after three attorneys, even my great attorney at the end, they it’s not what they do, which is mind blowing because they’re divorced attorneys, but they have no clue.

27:22

I’m sorry.

I’m sorry attorneys, they have no clue.

Please hire MD’s it it it’s you have to have a financial expert if you want to feel good about your settlement at the end, at least knowing that you did all you could.

That that is, thank you, Jackie, for saying that and for realizing it because it is really the foundational decision.

27:45

You know, a lot of people say, well, or the attorneys will say, we’ll hire a forensic.

Well, that’s a very nuanced opinion that you’re going to be getting, but it’s not going to help you understand your marital estate.

It may give you a business valuation, It may do a lot of things, but I think people don’t realize that.

28:07

And they don’t realize that their attorneys not only are not financial experts, they’re also not business experts.

They’re also not real estate experts.

They’re not also estate planning experts.

And a lot of people completely miss that.

Family law is very specific to navigating the divorce process, not not necessarily understanding all of the complexity of your assets and debts.

28:36

Absolutely.

And oh boy, don’t get me started on.

Forensics.

We spent probably more on forensics, which I’m sure does not surprise you guys.

I think that it is such a misnomer.

I know that the word forensic just means for court, that they can testify in court.

28:52

I think if you’re like me and you’ve seen every single episode of Forensic Files, you think that it means you’re going to find a financial fingerprint that no one else found and be able to tie it back to your ex and there’s a pile of money and an offshore account somewhere.

29:09

That is not what they do.

They will take your $50,000 retainer.

They’ll send a list of eight million things they need.

And again, I’m not knocking them because when they’re needed, they’re needed in very, very complicated cases.

However, they’re going to call you in a couple weeks and tell you they need another 50 grand because they got all the information.

29:26

They put it in a spreadsheet and that’s how far they got.

They put it in a spreadsheet because that takes a lot of hours and you’re like, but what did you find?

Well, nothing yet.

We have a new list of new items that we need now and we need another 50 grand.

So that is what happened in my case.

We each had our own forensics.

29:42

They, mine did, did nothing for my case and I’m not even bashing them.

They did nothing for my case.

And I mean hundreds and hundreds of thousands of.

Dollars you’re not alone because you don’t even know what the scope of what you hired them for.

And that’s the problem.

29:57

We’ve seen plenty of forensic reports and I totally agree there is a need for a forensic accountant, but it’s in very few cases, or I should say few percentage of the percentages of the cases out there.

But the people that are hiring them and you get the report back, it’s like a glorifying, checking, rebalancing account that you don’t need a forensic for.

30:19

And you say, what are you doing with this data now?

We don’t know.

Or what was the scope?

Well, I’m not sure.

My attorney just said I needed this one and this is the one my attorney wanted.

And so it’s so frustrating.

We went on.

We were on a call this week with the forensic, and Karen knew more about the case than the forensic knew.

30:38

And I looked at her literally through the camera.

If she could have felt me staring at her, like, are you effing kidding me?

Like, are you kidding me?

And So what is the forensic being paid for?

I just couldn’t believe it.

Without giving detail to that it keep it kept me up at night again.

You couldn’t sleep last night.

30:55

I just couldn’t sleep because I’m so frustrated by that.

Yeah, I I get the same way.

And I, I had a client the other day whose case was very, I, I can say this to you guys because if you’ve been through enough cases, you know, like it, yes, they had maybe a lot of accounts and retirement accounts and this and that, but that doesn’t make it complicated just because you own a couple homes and you have a number of retirement accounts And, you know, there’s a, that’s actually not financially complicated.

31:22

Even if he is doing a little freelance, if he’s the earner and he’s got AW 2, that’s, that’s still not complicated.

And but attorneys, because they don’t know immediately want to pass all that off to somebody and, and their answer is forensic accountant.

31:39

And so I declined and said, OK, so my attorney wants to hide A forensic and I said, why?

I’m just so confused.

Well, she said they need, you know, gather all the information and put it together.

I said, not a forensic accountant.

Do you know how much they cost?

And do you know what they do?

Like, what would be the goal?

31:55

To your point, ask your attorney specifically what exactly exactly is the goal of the friends?

What are they going to do?

Is there somebody else less expensive that can do this sort of bookkeeping stuff?

I don’t understand it all and I you’re not.

32:11

I said I, I can tell you, I can put all my money here on on betted on red.

You’re not going to trial.

Forensic means they can testify.

That’s all it means.

Why are you getting a friends account?

And she was like, I don’t know.

But you’re right.

They just do this knee jerk, let’s hand it off to a forensic and it sounds so sexy and glamorous.

32:32

And I have a forensic on my case that’s going to take care of everything and figure it all out.

And that’s it’s not what they do.

Well, you know what?

To the point, you know, I don’t defend attorneys a lot, but here I’ll, I’ll credit it.

If you go into your attorney and you say, you know, my spouse is hiding money and they’ve been diverting money because it’s an assumption I have because it’s in a controlling situation.

32:55

And you say that to your attorney, Yes, their response for their due diligence is going to be, well, you need a forensic to do that.

So that’s why we preach all day, every day.

Get prepared first because when you come through our process, we’re going to be able to really see if you need a forensic or not.

33:13

And we’re going to be able to give you the questions to ask your attorney.

What would be the result of getting very friends.

Like, will I be able to even claw back any of that money that I think I’m going to find?

Because sometimes people come in, it’s been 20 years ago or 10 years ago.

33:29

Those cases don’t get to claw back that money that I ever get to see.

But so for us, it’s about getting prepared.

Know what’s missing?

Nowhere you should avoid a rabbit hole or maybe you should go down a rabbit hole.

You know it’s your choice when you have all the data that’s in front of you and all the data that we think is missing to then decide.

33:48

So then you have an intelligent conversation with your attorney by saying XY and C instead of being so emotionally charged, and then you’ll have a better outcome actually.

You’re right, and just to validate your point, I came to my attorney with that thing.

He’s been audited by the IRS 7 times.

34:06

They never found anything.

But why do you keep getting audited?

He always tells me.

He tells me how he’s screwing people.

He tells me, you know, he got drunk and told the neighbor the other day asking some really shady offshore money hidden account questions.

He, you know, So yes, of course she’s like, oh SH crap, we need to hire a forensic.

34:24

So based off what I told her, you’re absolutely right.

Now I wish I had you guys again because you would have said OK, great.

Hold on, but let’s I had no idea the scope.

I just kept going.

They need more lists.

They have more stuff.

They need more stuff from him.

They need more stuff from him.

34:39

We don’t have it all yet.

We don’t we now we have more questions.

We have more questions.

I never once said what is the point of all this?

Yeah, that’s so true.

And you’re there with your emotional concerns, right?

That that is very upsetting.

34:55

And it’s your attorney’s job then to respond to that.

And they have a malpractice license to protect.

They have rules and procedures they have to follow all day long.

And to Catherine’s point, not only do we give you questions, we could on the phone with your attorney and ask very specific leading questions so that you can hear the answer.

35:17

So that if you believe your concern is, oh, he was audited or oh, I think, think that he was spending money for the past 10 years.

You know, I will ask or one of our legal liaisons will ask, well, attorney, how far will you go back?

What is this going to cost?

35:33

Is this something that you’re our client should be spending money on?

Because I see these other issues where there’s really legitimate value here that would be better, the money would be better spent here.

So maybe we should go after that first and everybody gets on the same page and then the client is learning and rooting themselves in that knowledge so that they can make really good decisions going forward.

35:58

Absolutely, and you know something else?

I loved your guys opinion on this that I found.

And I, I tell my clients is you need to really get clear on even just your monthly spending.

You need to get really clear on what it costs you to live right now, what it you know, you think it even might cost you in the future.

36:19

And because if this spirals out of control forever, like mine was and in the money is just flying out the window and you at some point just have to ask yourself what what do I need?

Let’s forget what there is, let’s forget what there is.

36:35

What do you need?

What is your future look like?

And that is something as a divorce coach, I will ask people like, what can we, let’s just stop and take a break for a minute.

Where, where do you want your life?

Like 2 years for let’s go 2 years, 2 years from now.

What does it look like?

36:50

And they’re like, Oh my God, I have no idea.

I haven’t thought about, I’m too busy doing this.

So let’s, let’s talk about it.

Because if you don’t know where you’re headed, how can we plan for that?

How can you even settle without a goal in mind?

37:07

And so it, it’s really sort of an aha moment for a lot of clients because they’re like, wow, well, I’d like to at least maybe be living in a condo here or here or, you know, whatever.

And I, you know, I really don’t care if it’s something very small or I want something, you know, whatever.

And it starts just the juices flowing of thinking about your future rather than being constantly tangled up in all this drama and chaos and the high anxiety stuff.

37:33

So that’s just a really important thing I think that clients need to do is think about their future.

Like, have fun thinking about it, yeah. 150% that’s, that’s one of after our clients upload their data and the documentation that they have available to them, that is the very next step.

37:50

Let’s go through your expenses, your, the way you lived, your lifestyle and how you’re living now and what you hope to be right.

It’s it’s three different views.

And most of the time, Jackie, people are very tentative.

38:05

First of all, they I have to hear a lot of confessions.

Oh my gosh, I spend a lot of money on shoes.

I’m so embarrassed.

Whatever the IT may be, it doesn’t matter.

But at the end of the day, it doesn’t matter.

To your point, what, how have you been living and what do you hope to continue?

38:24

What are your goals?

And then that is a wonderful platform to move off from.

That’s our second phase.

And then after that phase is our third phase where we go through division scenarios.

So that’s for your assets and debts.

38:40

So when we go to the division scenarios, it is sure you want to keep this house, which most women want to.

OK, what are you negotiating a way to keep that house?

And what will your future look like if you’re starting over to save for retirement?

And what repairs are needed on your house and what’s the cost of that and where’s the money you’re going to get that from?

38:59

And then why don’t you take an exercise?

Besides, where would you live if you didn’t keep the house?

And our next meeting, we’ll talk about that because how will that affect your budget or your lifestyle analysis that you did in the previous step?

And so we have an A scenario, B scenario and sometimes AC scenario so that, you know, nobody ever gets their best scenario.

39:16

So sometimes you want that middle of the road, the one that you’re a little uncomfortable with, but you’ll live with.

So then when you go to your attorney, you can say these are my scenarios or you go to mediation, which we’re so for if you’re prepared, then you know what you’re negotiating and you’re not making knee jerk reactions to anything because you are financially prepared.

39:35

And we also mark what’s missing, you know, so you can go to mediation and say, OK, I can agree to this if he can give me or she can give me these documents to verify it.

You know, so you’re going there asking really educated questions, not emotionally charged, saying he’s lying about that or she’s lying about that.

39:53

We’re actually asking for a piece of information to verify.

So you look really smart when you’re doing that.

That, that is amazing.

I wish that I had two or three scenarios that I had gone into my mediation with.

And, and I agree.

40:08

I am some, some people say like, oh, you can’t mediate with, you know, somebody who’s pathological or a narcissist or whatever.

And, and I get that sometimes their, their need for control is so bad, so strong that they, they take it all the way through court and you end up with no, no choice.

40:24

However, I, I firmly believe that if you can get mediation, if you have a, you have a, you guys MD’s and you go in with some scenarios, a, you get to look at those scenarios and sort of get used to them.

40:39

Like what you know, like you said, you look at them, can I live like this?

And then a couple that you sleep on it and you’re like, you know what, I can.

The other reason I would have loved that is when I got to that point where I’m like, this is going to go on forever.

He’s really good.

He is really good at not turning over any financial information.

40:57

He’s really good at handing us boxes of papers that we have to scan in the and then he says, I already gave you that.

And we said, no, you didn’t.

Yes, it was, it was in the box.

And then there’s a month of emails back and forth of no, you didn’t, yes, you did, No, you didn’t, yes, you did.

And then I get a $10,000 bill for my attorney because they were doing the no, you didn’t, yes, you did.

41:16

And I’m like, he’s actually kind of getting away with this.

And so I said to myself, I looked at myself in the mirror and I said, you went out, you want to wait so far away from this, but you’ve got to live on something.

You know, you, you need to get whatever there is and you need to go.

41:34

And it’s not him winning.

In fact, you saying tangled up in this, he’s winning.

You think that you’re you think that you’re getting somewhere by continuing to have your forensic ask For more information, continuing today, continuing to have the businesses evaluated and re evaluated to continued.

41:53

And he’s got an excuse at every turn.

And it’s been 2 1/2 years.

And in that moment I had to redefine what winning is.

And it’s again something I talked to my clients about and I had to decide what winning is, is me moving on with my life, taking whatever I could get and moving on.

42:12

But if I had had a a couple of really well thought out financial scenarios that professionals have put together for me that I had had some time to think about before I went into that mediation, I would have felt a whole lot better going in and a whole lot better coming out.

42:27

And so I just really applaud you guys for what you’re doing because AII did make the right decision because winning was moving on with my life, spending all my energy on me, not on on that.

That is a good win for sure.

And excuse me, lost my voice here.

42:45

That is a great win.

And also it’s a great win that you get to share with your clients, which you know, if you’re listening.

I know it’s scary.

I know it’s scary to make that decision to move on with your life and try to make the rest of your life the best of your life.

But to have Jackie as a resource could be so helpful to you to get that courage.

43:03

And of course, you know, when you come through our process and get financially prepared, they could bring that to you as well.

So you can help talk them through the confidence to use that information with their next professional.

So they, our services actually go hand in hand.

But none of us here take it for granted on how courageous you have to be to move forward.

43:20

So hopefully you’ll listen to this podcast and share it with others that you may know because we all know somebody who’s scared to make, just scared to make that next move.

And also send us comments if you want us to continue this conversation because Karen and I could talk to you for a very long time.

43:36

Jackie.

Oh, oh, for sure.

For.

Sure, for sure.

You guys.

I, I mean, I really do mean it.

I wish I had had you.

I cannot.

You’re going to be bombarded with people that I send you honestly, because you should be the first step before you even speak to an attorney.

43:56

I firmly believe that even if there’s a big custody component, that’s I get that.

And so you do need to talk to an attorney about that.

But divorce is financial.

In fact, when you legally separate, what do they do?

They, you still separate the finances and, and so it’s all about separating the finances and you just need to cover your butt.

44:17

And you are not an expert, so hire experts to help you.

I just, I, I’m so passionate about it as you can tell from my journey and what I went through.

You can see why, but it would have made a big difference.

Well, we commend you for taking all of that energy and paying it forward to so many people, so many people who will benefit from that.

44:38

So thank you, Jackie.

Thank you for joining us.

We’re you’re doing such important work, so can we talk a little bit about where people can find you and learn more about you and your podcast and make the connection with you?

Absolutely.

So my website is Jackie millercoaching.com and then a lot of my podcast, as you mentioned is called out of Crazy Town and a lot of my social media you can find through out of crazy Town.

45:05

So Instagram is out of crazy town, YouTube’s out of crazy Town, you know, and, and you know, just punch that in if you’re looking on any of the podcast platforms as well, if you want to listen to the podcast.

And, and I just thank you for for those kind words.

45:21

I feel very passionate about what I do.

And again, I just really want people to know it is going to be OK.

And you really, really can have the best chapter of your life ahead of you 100%.

And I truly mean that.

45:40

Well, thank you for saying that, and thank you for having that opportunity for people going through the divorce process and for those of you listening.

Visit us at my Divorce solution.com to learn how the MD’s financial portrait helps you prepare strategically, gain clarity and protect your financial future.

46:01

Jackie said it’s step one.

We’ve kind of taken on the notion that it’s step 0.

Absolutely.

That’s well said.

It sure is.

So don’t forget to like, comment and share this episode.

Until next time, take a breath, protect your power, and let knowledge be your strength.

46:20

I love it.

Protect your power.

So true.

So nice to meet you ladies.

Thank you for having me.

As well.

Thank you.

OK.

Thanks for joining us on another episode of WeChat Divorce.

We hope this episode was informative and supportive on your divorce journey.

46:39

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