161. Pro Se Mediation and the Kids First Approach with Tina Keyes

0:01

Welcome to WeChat Divorce, hosted by Karen Chellew, Legal Liaison and Catherine Shanahan, CDFA.

Each episode we sit down with divorced professionals and industry experts to provide insights and frank discussions about real people, real situations, and real divorce to help you achieve your best life post divorce.

0:43

I’m Karen Chellew, your legal liaison, helping you move through the divorce process with clarity and confidence.

And I’m Catherine Shanahan, Certified Divorce financial Analyst and your financial partner in in navigating divorce.

I kind of lost my voice a little bit today, but as you know, if you listen to our podcast at MD’s, our goal is to help you feel informed, empowered, and ready for what’s next.

1:06

And today, we’re leaning into a topic that directly affects the power dynamic in divorce pro SE mediation.

Yep, we’re going to talk about that term and what that actually means, navigating divorce without attorneys at the table.

We’ll also look at how some of the default divorce options out there can actually escalate conflict or confusion instead of easing it.

1:29

OK, Karen, so I know I like Tina.

I’ve met her before, but am I allowed to push back of everything that we keep hearing about in this conversation?

Because there’s so many times that mediators just let couples who are pro SE just make decisions based on data that one party doesn’t want to hand in or data that’s a spreadsheet, which I know you love that is not backed by any documents.

1:53

And I’m I’m always curious why are the mediators even allowing that?

Yeah, or facilitating conversation and not really bringing to light the data documents, the facts, the accountability, things like that.

Well, I can tell you that I’m very impressed with Tina.

2:09

So I believe any pushback you give will be responded to in a in a great way.

If you’re listening.

Yeah.

If you’re one of our listeners, you know that I could say things I probably shouldn’t say sometimes and that.

2:24

I’m not there to kick you under the table.

That’s an OK for from Karen to me saying go ahead because a lot of times when we’re on with attorneys, she’s like, be respectful, be respectful.

You can’t say that.

So I just got the OK, you all heard it.

I like her too.

2:40

So there’s probably not going to be a lot of pushback, but this conversation is pretty timely.

And we’re honored to be joined by somebody who believes in pro say, mediation.

And she puts kids first, which of course is always our go to because we do financial clarity.

Our front is it’s really advocacy for children of divorce.

3:00

So Tina Keys is here to help us rethink what support can look like.

Let’s welcome her to the show.

To WeChat divorce.

Thank you.

I’m excited to be here.

We’re so happy to have you with us today and truly grateful that you’re here to explore such an important and overlooked part of the divorce journey.

3:18

But before we dive into today’s topics, I’d love to introduce you to our listeners.

Tina Keyes is a Florida Supreme Court certified family mediator, a certified divorce coach and a certified Co parenting specialist.

She’s also certified in trauma informed practice, special needs, divorce and high conflict Co parenting.

3:38

Her Her Kids First and one teen mediation models are all about reducing stress and conflict while putting the focus back where it belongs, on real people, not legal drama.

Tina’s also a part of the Advisory Board for the Caring Co Parent Coach program and she brings both personal experience and professional integrity to everything she does.

4:02

Tina, again, thanks for being here.

We’re really excited for this conversation.

Yeah, thanks for the glowing intro.

Of course that was easy.

You got a lot to talk about, but before we get into our discussion, can you just share a little bit with our listeners about what led you into this work and how your background shaped the way you support clients today?

4:24

Yes, definitely.

So it’s kind of twofold.

On the one hand, I have been a stepmom for going on 11 years.

I, you know, sort of watch the ramifications of that traditional divorce litigation process within my own family, you know, both with the kids, you know, some of the things they went through, my stepsons, the Co parenting relationship, just, you know, some of the dynamics that come out of that kind of two sided mindset that is present in most divorce litigate most divorces, right.

4:55

So that was really is what led me into this initially in the coaching and then eventually in the mediation because I realized that’s really where there’s such a huge opportunity to influence the conversation and the tone and just the mindset, especially with parents of minor children who have so many years ahead of them still of, you know, coexisting and, you know, hopefully finding their way back to friendship, but at minimum at least remaining civil for the kids.

5:20

And I’m a huge believer that the divorce process itself is a huge part of the problem as to why so many families are not civil and coexisting well for the children.

So that’s step one, right?

And then Step 2 of that is my parents split up after 35 years of being together.

5:36

And it was the most amicable divorce complete, you know, opposite of most people’s situation.

They sat down 15 minutes at the kitchen table, divided all their finances of 35 years.

And there was something my dad said to me that really influences the way that I view this profession.

5:53

And I’ll never forget it.

And he said to me, Tina, if after 35 years together, we can’t separate as friends, then I feel like we’ve wasted our lives.

And that was so profound to me because I felt like there are so many other people out there who are looking for a way to do this amicably and they literally cannot find it.

6:15

And that’s, so that’s really what launched me into the framework, the mindset, the way that I work is very different than, you know, most mediation that you hear about.

And it’s, it’s really wonderful to see people be able to come together and overcome their differences and come out of it, you know, in a good place.

6:33

So that’s my my back story of why I do what I do.

Yeah, that’s good.

You know, we all, if you, we all who work in the industry, we’re not all of us, but the ones of us who are trying to trail place a different way to divorce, have those kind of stories because it, what it’s what drives you.

6:52

It’s it’s not, it’s not an easy business to be in.

To be able to have that perspective goes a long way.

When you’re talking to your, the people going through it, ’cause you get it, right?

You get it.

Yeah, it’s personal.

It’s personal.

7:08

That’s a good way to say it, yeah.

I like that and it creates the energy that you come to the table with or the mediation with your clients.

That’s really, really quite incredible.

Yeah.

Glad you do that.

So we’re going to start out with a legal Latin term.

7:28

I believe it’s important for people to understand what is pro SE mediation and who is it best suited for.

So yeah, that’s, so that’s basically what I specialize mostly in is pro SE mediation.

And it’s really when two people come to mediation without attorneys present, they’re not being represented.

7:46

That’s really what pro SE stands for is they’re representing themselves.

So, you know, if you go to court, same thing.

And if you don’t have an attorney, you’re considered a pro SE litigant.

So my process really focuses on helping people who don’t want all that intervention in their conversations sit down and come to those agreements that they eventually need to come to in order to get divorced.

8:09

I would say it’s a fit for a lot of people, and it’s not a fit for a small subset of people.

I would say if you are the type of person who is trying to go for the jugular, trying to take somebody for everything they have, you’re willing to, you know, you want to win at all costs.

8:31

You have that sort of mentality.

This process is not going to work for you, right?

It’s there’s ultimately mediation in general relies on two people voluntarily wanting to sit down and resolve their differences.

But pro say mediation, even more so, requires two people to really want to be open minded, be transparent and ultimately avoid all of the potential cost and conflict and emotional turmoil that comes along with litigation.

9:02

It’s worth it to them to sit down and say, let’s just figure this out to avoid all of that, you know, chaos and mess and expense.

Yeah, my problem with that is, listen, I’m, I’m, I’m a trained mediator.

I’ve mediated hundreds of cases.

But our process, you know, we don’t do mediation, but we help them get prepared for mediation.

9:25

And you know, I was just on with a client yesterday and she’s going to mediation and I’m trying to go through a division scenario with her to make sure she’s prepared.

And a husband still has not produced his documents.

So I said, and I’m, I said, well, why?

Why isn’t the mediator collecting this information?

9:43

She says, I don’t know, she’s just not making him give it.

So I, I said, you need to send the mediator a note with your spouse.

They know about us.

They know that she’s hired us.

I can’t go through a division scenario if I don’t have his information.

And so she was go.

I, it just amazes me that, and I hate to tell you this, Tina, but it’s not the first time I heard this right.

10:02

They go to mediations thinking they’re going to work through this because yes, everybody wants to avoid court, but they’re going with unverified data and they’re walking away really mad at the end of the day because they don’t get they’re, they’re frustrated, right?

And they can’t make good decisions, although they want to be in the process.

10:22

Yeah, I would say, you know, and that kind of speaks again to the, the type of clients that are fit for the, the kind of mediation I do, right.

Like there is a level of as you know, right, mediation, voluntary disclosure, right.

You have to be willing to provide all the information and trust that the other person’s willing to do the same because nobody’s, you know, court ordering you to provide anything, right?

10:42

It’s a different mindset.

So, yeah, there is that element.

If somebody is going to potentially be withholding information or, you know, not being transparent, then that makes it difficult for the mediation process to work, you know, because if you’ve got one person who’s intentionally not providing something, you probably are going to have to go another step, right?

11:03

And either have an attorney that’s going to require, you know, the mandatory disclosure and all of that or have, you know, go to court and do that.

Now, I will say it’s not like a, an all is lost scenario.

Like I, you know, the way I work, I don’t do half full day mediations.

11:21

I just don’t believe in that.

I think it’s ridiculous.

I, I don’t think anybody in is in their right headspace after two hours, let alone 4 hours, let alone 8 hours.

And I don’t care how good your lawyer is or how good the mediator is to me, like I have a big problem with that mindset just from a humanity standpoint.

11:39

It puts people under immense emotional duress, stress, and they’re a lot of times don’t even understand what they’re signing by the end of the day.

So for me, I break my process up in one to two hour sessions. 2 is really, I mean, if I go past two, it’s very rare.

11:55

It’s in a situation where they really have to expedite things.

But usually it’s one hour a week.

So we have space for people to work through a few things, go get more information and come back, you know, and, and I guess to circle back to your point, the point I’m making is sometimes there may be one particular issue that they can’t fully get there on because they don’t have all the information or because somebody is being difficult.

12:22

And ultimately I tell them, at least we can still work to get a partial mediated agreement.

And then you can reserve that one issue to work through with attorneys or that one issue to work through with, you know, a judge.

But at least we’re getting a good chunk of it done that you 2 can agree on and that you do both have the information on.

12:41

So that’s what I guess I would say to that is it sort of depends if you’re going to a full 8 hour mediation day and you don’t have all the information, I mean you’re pretty much, you know it’s not going to happen, right?

And I do not to disagree with you, but in a little way I’m going to.

Unfortunately, sometimes I don’t like one off negotiations because even if it’s one asset, that one asset trickles down to all the rest of them or you lose your negotiation power.

13:06

One spouse really wants that one out asset and the other one doesn’t.

So I’m not really a fan of that unless it’s like they’re selling the house and they should ask for the money even that’s the big one, right?

They’re negotiating, negotiating away a pension.

OK, maybe we just quadra it like there’s some things that you can do if you don’t have the data.

13:25

But I want to know what your role is as a mediator when they come to you and they say, like I had her e-mail her mediator, ask the mediator, does she want you to make decisions without this data because you don’t have have it.

And then like, shouldn’t the mediator say, listen, I can’t help you negotiate if we don’t, if you we can’t verify.

13:44

I know it’s voluntary or, or to your point, it’s not, you know, maybe they’re a subset.

At some point you have to realize that although you come in with the intent to mediate, if your spouse doesn’t, you’re now have fallen into that subset of people that mediation is not good.

For yeah, right, exactly.

14:00

And that’s what I would say is my my approach.

You know it’s it’s called kids first mediation, right.

It’s this mindset of we are trying to put the kids first.

We are trying to both be amicable.

It takes a certain type of person, a certain type of parent who wants to do it that way.

14:17

And again, if you’ve got someone who’s intentionally stonewalling the process or not disclosing information, that’s probably not a fit for what I do because I am generally my clients that I work with are very open with everything.

14:34

That’s a big part of my process.

We do a lot of the information gathering within the mediation process.

So and that’s where, you know, they can really see everything with their two eyes right there.

I’m screen sharing, we’re writing things down, we’re clarifying the list of assets.

14:49

So they even know what they have.

So, you know, I would say that probably falls into the bucket of people that aren’t a fit for what I do.

And that’s OK because there’s an entire industry of people who are a wonderful fit for that.

But I think, you know, Catherine, to your point, like the, I think the market that’s most underserved from my perspective in this entire, I guess, world of divorce or divorce system, whatever you want to call this, are the amicable people who want some kind of guidance.

15:19

Because what I find is, you know, if you’re somebody who wants to go the litigation route or you, you know, want to battle on things or you don’t want to get there, like that’s there’s a whole system set up for that, right?

And if you are are the type of client who wants to be amicable, but you don’t want to completely do it yourself, you want there to be some kind of structure around getting to those agreements.

15:40

It’s really hard to find that because for an end client who is not in the family law world, mediation is so ambiguous.

They don’t understand what it is, what it isn’t.

How do I find it?

You know, is this, how does this mediator work?

Because it’s completely different from how that mediator works.

15:56

And so when you’re that kind of amicable middle class family who’s looking to resolve their issues without all of that intervention, you just a lot of times they can’t find it.

And so you, you hear about, you know, I think the stats where I am, Central Florida, it’s like 70 to 80% of cases are pro SE or one attorney, meaning they probably came to their agreements and had one attorney file. 20% of cases are the two lawyer litigation model, right?

16:25

That means there’s so many people out here who are trying to do this themselves or some version of, you know, maybe they hire a company like yours to do the financial side and then they’re trying to work it out amongst themselves or with a mediator.

So, you know, I think there’s a big subset of people who really need that support and are really struggling to get it.

16:43

And so that’s what I’m framing my whole practice around.

It’s not the high conflict people because those people are not my demo, right?

Like there’s a huge industry for that and it’s not me, and that’s OK.

I mean, nationally, because we’re a national company, it’s like 10% of the cases will go or what against, right?

16:59

So I do believe that.

But what I want if you’re listening to this and I, I am a firm believer of mediation.

I just think that it’s the way that you should try to do it.

I think you should come through our process so you’re prepared financially.

It’s just about gathering documents, it’s having them assessed, it’s verifying, it’s all that.

17:15

I think if you do that, you absolutely should try mediation.

But what I don’t want you to be afraid of is to back out of mediation.

And so many people that start it because they are amicable.

Everybody wants to be amicable to some level, right?

And that’s why I like that you deal with the kids section because that kind of keeps you in the recheck.

17:33

Listen, it’s kids first.

Let’s get this done.

But don’t be afraid that if, if, if the mediator is not able to collect the data from your spouse and you’re not financially clear, back out, you might be that 10% that has to go another route or by backing out sometimes and going the litigation route.

17:52

Well, maybe force your spouse then to get a reality check and say, OK, I’ll give it back to the mediator now, now we can.

I was.

Going to say that.

Yeah, sometimes also when, when if you do that kind of approach where you’re like, hey, well then I’m going to have to go the court route and do all these things, then people become more willing to get back into the conversation and be more reasonable.

18:11

You know, and I tell people ultimately, like where I am, right, in Central Florida, and it’s different in every county, every state, every, you know, everywhere you go, right?

But where I am, you’re pretty much going to have to go mediate.

I mean, if you file for divorce, you’re going to mediation.

That’s it’s pretty much understood.

The only time they maybe won’t do mediation before some kind of court date is if there’s like a, a serious danger to a child or something’s happening that requires like, we got to go straight to court, right?

18:38

So like, why not start there?

Like if you already have to go there anyways, start there.

Like let’s see how far we get.

And again, Catherine, new point, there’s never you never that can’t go and and hire a lawyer and do disclosure or, you know, go through the court or take it a level up.

18:55

And I have many times clients start with me with no CDFA or financial support involved.

And then, you know, part way through the process, they’re like, you know, one of the spouses.

It’s like, gosh, you know, I don’t really, I don’t really know what I’m doing here with alimony.

I don’t really know how to make this decision with, you know, either alimony or with the house or what to do.

19:13

And that’s where then I would recommend, hey, maybe you should go work with a CDFA, get yourself one-on-one, if not two on one, right?

Get yourself to where you feel confident in what we’re talking about and then come back.

Because my ultimate charter as a mediator is they have to have self determination.

19:30

If they cannot feel confident in the decisions they’re making, I can’t move forward.

And so, like, ethically by my professional standards, right?

So that’s where I would say, OK, it seems like you don’t feel like you’re ready to make this decision.

19:46

What would make you feel more ready?

And here’s some names that maybe you can look at.

You know, here’s my divorce solution.

Why don’t you see if this is a good fit for you, See if you’re able to get the information you need.

And then let’s come back and try to finalize decisions.

Yeah.

20:03

So let’s talk about that best practices to prepare for mediation, whether it’s the parenting plan or the financial plan.

Let’s start with the parenting plan first.

What are best practices?

Because I think a lot of people start with, oh, let’s mediate, let’s call a mediator, let’s set up a session.

20:23

But I believe that if you can prepare ahead of time so that you’re starting mediation with some fundamental knowledge, it goes a long way.

So how could people, families best prepare for the parenting plan?

20:38

Let’s just start there.

So for the parenting plan specifically, I think understanding the statutes in your state and how things work, right, I think sometimes, you know, I often will see families where one person often the mom wants majority time sharing, right?

20:57

And then dad wants 5050 and there is a legal reality like where I am in state of Florida, there’s now a legal presumption of 5050.

So if you are not educated to understand that, and that takes one Google search, you know, time sharing Florida, you know, whatever, like statutes, it’s not, it’s not like a, you don’t have to go to a lawyer and pay $500 to get that information, right.

21:21

It’s a basic, but just to understand like what stands to happen if you can’t find an agreement.

I would also say I often like people to prepare with looking at holidays ahead of time.

That can sometimes be a very, I would say one of the more emotional conversations we have with the parenting plan is usually holidays, especially Christmas and you know, birthdays, right?

21:45

So trying to have some idea going into it of what you’re wanting to do because if you haven’t even thought about it, it’s really hard to make any kind of decision on the spot if it’s the first time you’re thinking about the Christmas holiday in two households.

And I’ve had mediations where we’ve had to kind of completely stop that conversation and come back to it next time because somebody got extremely emotional and was not able to even reconcile that, you know, to household situation with a holiday.

22:11

So I would encourage people to really take some time and determine how they would want to handle not just holidays, but also travel.

You know, a lot of times parents are not aligned on what’s reasonable for, for travel rules.

So making sure that you have clarity at least on your own of what you feel is appropriate.

22:29

I will say first right of refusal is a category that often becomes a point of contention.

You know, can we hire a babysitter without, you know, offering time to the other parent?

What are those thresholds like?

That’s, again, if it’s the first time we’re talking about it in a mediation, it can be a quick zero to 10 emotional reaction.

22:50

So sometimes just having the space to really digest and maybe talk to family members or think it through a little bit can help people be more reasonable in a negotiation.

So yeah, those would be the things that I would say probably from a parenting plan standpoint.

23:06

I.

Wonder if I’m sharing related.

I wonder if a child support calculation should be run first because I know that in my experience, I know that when a parent wants more than 5050, the other parent gets really mad.

23:25

Like, let’s just use mom and dad.

Hate to say it, but that’s a typical way, right?

Mom was the CEO of the house and ran the kids and dad worked great, did a great job, and now all of a sudden he’s going to not travel as much and he’s going to be around.

And that’s great.

You have an opportunity to reset your parenting skills, but oftentimes it’s mostly because of the Child Support difference if you have 60% or if you have 50%, and sometimes it’s really not that big.

23:49

It’s not as impactful as some people think.

So if they knew that number before, would it really help them to be realistic about how their household runs the best?

Yeah, I would say so it’s like a double edged sword.

So my, my standard practice is to do time sharing 1st and look at child support at the end, right.

24:08

I will say there are situations sometimes if I can sense as the mediator that there’s a financial component to why the time sharing ask is happening or why like kind of that stubbornness is happening, then at that point I might, a lot of times I’ll punt on that and come back to it after the Child Support conversation.

24:28

So This is why I feel like my process is so much more palatable for people, especially who are pro SE because we talk about something for an hour, we leave, we come back, we talk about the next thing, we leave, we come back.

And so now if we get stuck on time sharing, that’s OK, we can highlight it and let’s come back, right?

24:48

And we can still make forward progress.

And it gives sometimes just taking three weeks between conversations changes a lot of perspective.

You know, sometimes once for a month or two into that kind of week long process, people don’t feel as positional as they did in the beginning or they start to like soften towards one another just by having that weekly touch point with each other within our mediation framework where they feel like, OK, I can have a conversation with you without you like, you know, being a crazy person, right?

25:18

So they sort of rebuild a little bit more of that professional communication and that can help us sometimes get there.

And so I would say I use it as a tool.

I agree with you.

It can’t sometimes be helpful.

I don’t default to it being the first step because I think sometimes it can hurt the conversation depending on their dynamics.

25:37

So I think it’s just that’s part of the job is try as a mediator figure out like wanting to have this conversation.

Well, I like that and I definitely agree that 8 hours because I’ve been in them as a financial neutral, sitting through them a total waste and totally unfair.

25:53

But anyway, I love that approach.

And we actually see that with the MD’s method, you know, when we’re dealing with their finances and the kids situation comes up or that emotional stuff comes up.

It’s so good for us to say, now you’re going back to your mediator, you know, go back and work schedule your session to talk about that.

26:09

But let’s just keep gathering this data.

Let’s keep assessing them.

So it does it diffuse a lot of things and it helps them to keep moving forward.

So that strategy I know is proven and it’s great that your practice does that.

Yeah.

And what’s interesting is, like you said, I think you made a good point.

26:26

The difference is obviously not what people expect.

Like the delta between like, I don’t know, 60% versus 50%.

It’s like, you know, maybe 100 bucks or something.

It’s not like remotely what anybody thinks it’s going to be.

And so then we’re, you know, once they see the number, they’re like, oh, OK, that’s fine.

26:42

Like I’m not going to die on this hill, right?

But again, it’s a tool and that’s, you know, as mediators, that’s our job is to use our toolkit at the best we can.

Obviously, you know, you can’t force anyone to do anything, right, as a mediator ultimately, like, I can’t make you make a decision, but I can try to help you see, you know, through the different tools that maybe it’s not worth, you know, fighting this one particular issue.

27:07

Yeah, yeah.

So let’s move on to finances, financial clarity.

What are best practices for that for people to arrive at mediation the first session?

What for best practices?

What should they have together and how much should they be in the now?

27:25

You mean?

Because I have our opinion.

After they get their portrait is the best guy me?

I don’t know if that was for me or.

Going somewhere with that.

So I will say high level, the more information the better, right?

27:44

I mean, I, I spend a lot of time with pro SE clients information gathering because they’re not prepared.

And that’s just bottom line I think.

But you know, what’s unfortunate is I think that happens often with the 8 hour mediations too, that they’re not prepared.

28:00

And now we’re spending, you know, you’ve got 2 lawyers and a mediator for 8 hours in a room that’s like 8 grand.

I mean, that is an expensive mistake.

So you know the.

Lawyer you, you said earlier about them getting tired and not the lawyers are tired too.

28:15

You know they don’t.

They want you to settle.

They want to go home too.

Right.

Oh and sometimes these meet, I’ve heard of people have mediations that drag like 14 hours and stuff.

I’m like what are you doing?

You know like like I brain it like as a mediator I can’t even function after 1414 hours, you know what I mean?

28:34

So, yeah, that’s, it’s, I will say people are grossly underprepared for most financial conversations.

You know, I have some clients, you know, I give them their kind of list or they, you know, work with a CDFA, they come and they’re like ready.

They’ve got all their stuff.

28:49

They’re, you know, they know exactly what the numbers are.

They have all the information ready to go.

It saves them a ton of money and time because we’re not spending our sessions literally writing down information.

Now, you know, sometimes things come up during mediation that maybe they forgot about and then they have to go back and get more information.

29:07

And that’s part of it as well.

You know, of course, ideal scenario, they go to somebody like you and they come fully prepared, you know, and that’s, I guess that would be my answer, that they have the full picture.

That’s is that always the case or often the case, you know 5050 I guess, right?

29:22

Like depends on clients.

Yeah.

So many times we’ll have someone come and say, well, we have this net worth statement, which is not even in line with how the courts look at how to divide marital assets.

It may be a good foundation, but once you start building it out into the division line and you know how courts look at the value of these various assets, you know, it’s a different conversation.

29:48

I say to so many people, it’s almost like learning a new language, right?

How you manage your household and how you’re going to divide assets and debt and divorce is two different things.

But it it’s so true.

Back to your discussion about going to mediation without having the documents.

30:08

And this happens probably 80 to 90% of the time in litigation.

We’ve all seen it.

We’ve all experienced.

We, you know, we tell our clients you don’t have enough information or documentation to go to mediation and the attorneys will say, well, we’re just going to go see how the other side feels.

30:25

We’re going to go see if they maybe will bring the documents.

We’re going to go to do these various things other than mediate.

But when the client gets there, they’re actually mediating 8 hours later, their attorneys looking at them saying you either we, we need to settle this.

30:44

This is how it’s going to play forward for you, good or bad, or I need $25,000 to move towards trial.

And so, you know, it’s the system that is the system that people don’t know they’re walking into.

31:00

So to prepare and to talk about these issues as much as possible before moving into litigation is so important.

So.

Yeah.

And I will say like just gathering data is so, you know, underrated, like the importance of data, right?

31:18

Because like I can be in a conversation with someone and, you know, someone brings up, hey, you know, I had this, you know, like unvested stock, right?

Like that’s one that’s always like a Gray area, right?

Like, you know, because if you’re in mediation, you can consider it whatever you want, right?

31:36

Are there statutes that determine whether something’s marital or non marital?

Of course.

But you can have two people, if they’ve been together 20 years and somebody earned vested unvested stock that’s going to invest in three months, six months a year, they may view it differently.

And we can’t have a fruitful conversation on what part of that they consider to be, you know, marital, regardless what the statutes say.

31:59

If they don’t have a schedule that’s clear and they don’t understand when was it granted?

When is it vesting?

What’s the schedule?

How does that look?

Right?

And those are the types of data points.

I’m like, if you don’t have that information you have and you don’t understand how this stuff works because a lot of people don’t understand Rs news and, and stock vesting and they’ve never, you know, they’re getting paid that way, but they don’t really fully comprehend how it works.

32:22

And a lot of times the other spouse might have even less knowledge of how it works.

So issues like that, having a financial professional who’s sitting down with you, running through it, explaining it to you so you can come into a conversation and negotiation and say, look, I get that technically by statute this is non marital.

32:37

But I feel that based on our history together and these points, this portion of it should be coming to me once at best, right?

Like now we can have a fruitful conversation because everyone has the right information.

And that is a big, big issue in in mediations that people don’t come prepared.

32:56

And it’s the first time we’re talking about unvested stock.

And now you’ve got attorneys trying to explain to their client, what is that right?

We don’t have a financial professional in the room.

So they’re trying like it’s not work.

You’re not going to get there.

So they could have had that conversation with Someone Like You ahead of time.

33:12

Now they can come in feeling armed to, you know, have a rational, reasonable facts based conversation.

I think that would be my big thing is trying to have facts based conversations.

Like if you want to prepare for mediation, well, you got to like get the emotions out of the conversation because you’re going to do yourself a huge disservice if you’re leading with your emotions versus data.

33:37

I think you just did.

I think you just did a commercial for us because that’s what we say.

We say the portrait is based on data, not your emotions, right?

Yeah, that we’re so committed to that.

You know, it’s data and verified documents.

You know, we we want the data, but we also want the documents to verify that data because you need that as a mediator.

33:58

Attorneys need that as an attorney if that’s where they’re going to end up.

We’re so committed that that is why we developed our company of coming in and going through a very structured process.

This is your cash flow.

These are your marital assets.

These are the documents that support that.

34:15

These are how this is how the courts will look at those assets, whether it’s stock options, real estate businesses, whatever the IT may be.

It’s important even how they look at home values and equity in the home and if there’s other parties on the home.

34:30

Sometimes people don’t even know that if the, you know, if there’s a trust involved or whatever the IT may be.

So just understanding that and not uncovering it midway through mediation and then, you know, having to risk a failed mediation because somebody hit a financial trigger, you know, in the midst of negotiation that wasn’t anticipated.

34:52

So yeah, for sure.

Well, that’s why I like breaking it up too, because even if we do hit a trigger like that, right, whether on anything, whether it’s finances or parenting or whatever it is, we have the option to kind of say, you know what, let’s put a pin in this and let’s come back.

35:09

Because for me, working with pro SE clients, for the most part, I do attorney mediations as well.

But most of what I do is pro SE, like I feel a responsibility as a mediator, right?

Again, self determination to make sure that these two people in front of me when by the time they sign the agreement, they have exhausted all options and they feel confident in what they’re signing.

35:32

They may not love every word of what they’ve agreed to.

They might not like be jumping for joy at what’s happening, but they can live with it and they understand why they made the decisions they made.

And to me, that doesn’t happen in an 8 hour pressure cooker.

35:47

I just don’t believe in that framework.

I think people need to be given the autonomy and the, the space to digest what they’re doing so that they can ultimately sign on the dotted line at the end confidently, you know, without regret later, you know, And that’s, it’s a different mindset than, you know, the traditional mediation system, I guess.

36:09

And then can you do their marital settlement agreement and file for them so?

In Florida, we’re allowed to draft as mediators.

Not every state allows that, obviously, right.

So we, you kind of, you know, depending on the rules.

But yeah, in Florida, we’re allowed to draft and we’re allowed to, we are allowed to file.

It’s not something I personally do.

36:25

I refer to a legal document preparer for the filing.

I don’t know, but there’s plenty of mediators that do it.

I just kind of focus on the mediation part.

But yeah, technically in the state of Florida, we’re allowed to do both.

That’s great.

Well, this has been a great conversation because we truly hear them.

36:43

DS believe in mediation if you’re prepared.

And so I love and I wrote it down.

The biggest problem in mediation is your response was most people are grossly unprepared and I couldn’t agree with you more.

So being prepared will save you time and money.

And it also I, I, I realized when people come through our process, we can advocate for mediation for them because we get to know them and we do turn their emotions into data-driven responses, which really just prepares you as the mediator and lets you do it in less than 8 hours or in your little, it’s little spurts of one and two hours, which I totally back because I think that’s the best way to go.

37:22

So, and I get another take away today here is gathering data is so underrated.

You know, a lot of times we have it a 10 step process and we have our portal that’s built out.

It just tells them where to upload everything.

It’s all spelled out right?

And but it’s still frustrating and it’s so hard to do, But the response you get from doing that in the long run is so I’ll use your word again, fruitful because it really is.

37:47

You have to make data-driven decisions, not emotional ones, and help your mediator by being prepared.

So I, I really love having you as a resource for our clients in Florida.

Thank you.

And like I said, I, you know, for me, I, this is a huge passion of mine.

38:03

Like I, my goal is to, you know, revolutionize the the status quo of pro SE mediation.

Like I think there’s the big challenge for people who are looking for this as they cannot find it, they don’t understand it.

And there’s no standardized way of doing this.

And so, you know, I am one person on an island.

38:22

I can only do so much to, you know, improve outcomes for my own clients.

But you know, I’ve developed a certification program where I’m trying to bring together other mediators who can get certified as Kids First certified mediators.

And we can all build this together as a collective of people who sit there and say, you know what, we’re in this industry and the system just is not working for a certain subset of clients.

38:46

And we need to come together and develop a better system that is more standardized and that people understand and that they can find it, you know, cuz I think ultimately, if they can find somebody, a mediator like me, and they can find a company like you to get the finances sorted, There’s so much empowerment there.

39:03

When they understand what they’re doing and they have the space to think through their decisions and they’re not under pressure, you know, they can really have better outcomes as Co parents because they come together and make those decisions.

And now they can move forward and tackle other difficult things when they come in the parenting.

39:20

And that’s ultimately the, the end goal for me is prevent trauma for children.

So the more that we can help parents stay amicable when they’re within their actual divorce process, you know, the less trauma there is for the kids ultimately in the long run.

Yeah, and I know that I kind of summed us up, but you said something and I have to jump in here again, Karen, I’m sorry, but you’re so because it’s so true.

39:42

And a lot of times, I mean, if Karen and I could put together the money, we would have from people just saying, I wish I knew you five years ago, you know, because people that don’t make good financial decisions because they don’t have the clarity to make those decisions live with regret.

39:58

And ultimately they take it off on the kids.

And that’s when you hear a lot of the I can’t, your dad won’t give me the money or your mom took all my money.

So I can’t do that.

That really just affects the kids.

So for us with the MD’s method, when you come in and you have financial clarity.

40:15

Because it’s true, when you mediate, you’re going to maybe not get your A scenario, you might not get your C scenario, but you’ll get the B scenario.

Everybody’s a little uncomfortable, but then you can move on.

And then you can put your kids first.

And at the end of the day, we’re all advocates for the kids, not necessarily people going through it because they’re the ones that are marrying my kids and your kids.

40:35

And that’s what’s making this generation go around.

So I do think working in tandem with the financial clarity and going to a mediator that can help you put your kids first is a really a win win for the family.

Oh, 100%, yeah.

I think, you know, the financial elements of divorce are so often overlooked.

40:53

I think as far as the cost emotionally on the children of that financial cost, right, If 30 forty $50,000 a $100,000 to three years of conflict is spent getting divorced, that’s their college fund, that’s their vacation with their parents to like build bonds and connections, right?

41:15

That’s their parents ability to pay their bills and have savings so that they’re not a burden later to their kids in retirement years.

Like it’s a huge long term impact and it’s had and, and you know, I think sometimes people get so in the weeds of like wanting to win the one small thing they’re willing to like lose it all.

41:34

And that’s, that’s sad.

There’s so many cases where the $200,000 attorney fee would have paid the alimony number they were fighting over, right?

You’re right.

That’s what I’m saying.

All right, so tell our reputers how they can find you, because I’ll keep talking.

41:50

Yeah, yeah.

So my website is Florida Divorce mediation.com.

That’s my business.

And again, Tina Keys, I’m based in Orlando, FL, but I work remotely all over Florida.

And the Kids First program, like I said, we’re always looking for mediators that share our vision.

42:07

So that’s Kids First, mediation.com.

Excellent, and if you’re looking to understand your marital finances before making major decisions, visit us at My Divorce solution.com.

With the right information, you can move forward with confidence.

42:24

And if this episode resonated with you or someone you know going through a divorce, please share it with them.

If you would like some follow up information or you have questions or comments about anything that we said today, whether you agree with us or not, please leave them and we’ll discuss them next time.

Sounds great.

42:39

Thank you again, Tina.

It’s a great conversation.

Thanks for joining us on another episode of WeChat Divorce.

We hope this episode was informative and supportive on your divorce journey.

If you're looking for more support for navigating divorce with confidence and clarity, head over to azure-emu-499854.hostingersite.com/ for more podcast episodes, divorce events, and resources for your divorce.

43:06

We’ll see you back here for our next episode.